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Tying A bridles together to increase topend? or similar adjustable reefing system.

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foilholio
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Tying A bridles together to increase topend? or similar adjustable reefing system.

Postby foilholio » Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:20 pm

I was thinking simply a line between top or bottom of A mains. This would restrict the PA, giving better topend and turn. More advanced would be a bar adjustable reefing system, but I think that is too complicated. Just using the line on A is simple, and easy enough to try. Could potentially make certain situations much better like traveling with limited kites etc. Obvious disadvantage is flipping or inverting the kite where lines cross over will tangle. Certain relaunch issues and tangles may become present.


Thoughts?

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jakemoore
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Re: Tying A bridles together to increase topend? or similar adjustable reefing system.

Postby jakemoore » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:33 pm

Similar to the span-line mid for the old PL Arc’s?

They figured out a mechanism to not disable the safety.

Hopefully Kite Expert will share a CAD drawing to illuminate us.

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Re: Tying A bridles together to increase topend? or similar adjustable reefing system.

Postby foilholio » Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:13 am

I thought of that used on PL. Safety would be an issue. If it was at the front line you could allow the non flagging line to slip through a loop or ring. Now I think about that it is basically a very high V system. I think if it was on the top of the A mains it would restrict the PA a bit more effectively but not sure how the safety would work there. If the A mains were longer then it could still flag. Fifth line might still work.

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Re: Tying A bridles together to increase topend? or similar adjustable reefing system.

Postby kitexpert » Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:18 pm

Some try to develop smooth low drag high performance kites, some try to distort kites in every direction to get them "better". To each their own :lol:

Unfortunately it is a fact that foil kite (or any other double curvature wing) has only one shape - the shape it was originally designed and manufactured - in which is as clean as it can be. It is kind of funny that lengths of bridle lines are given at the tolerance of 0.5cm and that very good care is taken with panel and airfoil shapes and sewing precision while kite is made - and then some tinkerers make their own mods which produce considerable shape errors.

It is noteworthy that FS don't give different PA % values any more, but they still say "triple depower" is there. I've tried to look if Soul changes its CC, but so far I've not been able to see it.

If kite has low cell count and bulging cells it doesn't matter that much if shape is distorted. However trend is to design smoother low drag wings, like FS has done with Soul.

I remind that current speed system works very well, it does not need any tweaking. It gives good AoA control and minor camber increase during powering up is possible.
jakemoore wrote: Hopefully Kite Expert will share a CAD drawing to illuminate us.
Of course, it is a pleasure to enlighten people:

Image

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Re: Tying A bridles together to increase topend? or similar adjustable reefing system.

Postby foilholio » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:09 pm

not an expert wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:18 pm
some try to distort kites in every direction to get them "better". To each their own :lol:


Like Flysurfer and other ADVANCED parafoil designers.
not an expert wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:18 pm
Unfortunately it is a fact that foil kite (or any other double curvature wing) has only one shape


Not true at all, and you will go on to prove the point in a second.

not an expert wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:18 pm
If kite has low cell count and bulging cells it doesn't matter that much if shape is distorted


You continuously contradict yourself, first it matters now apparently it doesn't. You are one confused individual.
not an expert wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:18 pm
However trend is to design smoother low drag wings, like FS has done with Soul.
Inflatable LE are not smooth but a big draggy lump.
not an expert wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:18 pm
It gives good AoA control and minor camber increase during powering up is possible.
It's funny how you have gone from denying camber change to now admitting. Frankly you are just a troll. Oh and if a wing changes camber it has to change SHAPE, big contradiction on
not an expert wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:18 pm
Unfortunately it is a fact that foil kite (or any other double curvature wing) has only one shape

not an expert wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:18 pm
Of course, it is a pleasure to enlighten people:
No enlightening here at all, just your usual trying to pass rubbish off under the guise of a facade of acted expertise.
not an expert wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:18 pm
Image
Totally wrong characterization of what I wrote, no wonder you fail basic understanding of so many things. Oh and Pyscho4 has more arc change than that. By your inference, Flysurfer are complete utter mor.ons for trying to make a kite that did what the Pyscho4 did, Concept Air too with their Smarts. I mean seriously what were they thinking trying to make a kite change it's shape! Didn't bow to the holy troll expert of kiteforum.

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Re: Tying A bridles together to increase topend? or similar adjustable reefing system.

Postby Mossy 757 » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:20 pm

Or just use really short lines and accomplish the same thing without starting a shit flinging thread with your arch nemesis :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Tying A bridles together to increase topend? or similar adjustable reefing system.

Postby kitexpert » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:42 pm

P4 is a ten years old kite. In some sense it was advanced for sure, but it had a strange bar feeling or more like lack of it. Wingtips looked bad depowered, even though they didn't cause much troubles. Smarts are simple low performance kites, not very interesting at all.

I suggest for you foilholio to update your views. Now it is time for foil kites like Soul: clean, efficient and more LEI like behaving than foils have ever been.

One reason why inflatables are so efficient in spite of their low AR's is how smooth they are. LE is solid and it has very good surface quality, it apparently counters quite a lot that excessive drag round tube causes. Also canopy itself has better surface quality than what it is in any foil kite. And everyone knows how smaller inertia makes LEI's so much more reactive.

Your claims I was contradicting myself are just stupid. You constantly mess the scale of things or just don't want to understand. I must say your tweakings are a bit like alchemy or trying to make a perpetuum mobile, mostly waste of time.

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Re: Tying A bridles together to increase topend? or similar adjustable reefing system.

Postby jakemoore » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:49 pm

kitexpert wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:18 pm

Of course, it is a pleasure to enlighten people:

Image
There you have it! Foilholio’s kite doesn’t look like it would fly at all.

This guy looks like he is on to something, connecting A bridles with pantyhose.

http://www.designkites.com/2012/10/revo ... kes-syste/

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Re: Tying A bridles together to increase topend? or similar adjustable reefing system.

Postby kitexpert » Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:31 pm

jakemoore wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:49 pm
kitexpert wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:18 pm

Of course, it is a pleasure to enlighten people:

Image
There you have it! Foilholio’s kite doesn’t look like it would fly at all.

This guy looks like he is on to something, connecting A bridles with pantyhose.

http://www.designkites.com/2012/10/revo ... kes-syste/
I'm sure that with pantyhose connection it would fly very well! I don't think that invention needs further CAD modelling :lol:

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Re: Tying A bridles together to increase topend? or similar adjustable reefing system.

Postby foilholio » Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:16 am

Mossy 757 wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:20 pm
Or just use really short lines and accomplish the same thing without starting a shit flinging thread with your arch nemesis :lol: :lol: :lol:
True yes short lines will give you much higher topend. I was thinking this as a simple thing when you don't have another kite to switch to. You could even combine it with short lines, improved turn would help with that. A simple line between front lines at the kite will work, as long as the non flag line is on a loop so it can freely release. In that regard the system merely is a (very)high V, which is already well understood and used. If someone wants to wrongly criticize that, or skepticize it then they are idiots. A brand like North has already used that technique to constrain arc for a very long time. As to a bar adjustable reefing system that is much more complicated. It certainly can be done, but it goes against what I was originally thinking which is something very simple to increase topend.


On "The expert" lol, more like arch idiot. He is I have deduced a sophisticated troll. All indications point to him being a LEI designer with an interest in foil kites. His ideas about things are often right but then so very wrong in some cases. The problem he mixes the rubbish with truth and talks in such an authoritative manner that without some experience people will just "swallow it whole"(old trick that too he should start a cult). He has a habit now of asserting one thing say like "camber can't change" and "mixers and line placements are not designed to change camber" to now the opposite. It is actually quite funny to see. Not many would be aware of it as it has happened over different posts in different threads. Oh and the chutzpah of him naming himself expert lol.

As to jakemoore, I think my involvement with Pansh has rubbed him up a bit, as has many other. But it is all good :-) I like him.

I believe in open debate, right or wrong, laughed at or admired. I started this thread knowing it's not a new idea as such, I may get laughed at and ridiculed. It has been helpful though, the flagging line issue slipped my mind and Jakemoore helped maybe unknowingly with that. "The experts" ridicule drawing actually helped me visualize an adjustable system. I wonder how that makes him feel knowing a picture he drew(wrongly) to make fun of my idea actually helped me :-)
jakemoore wrote: There you have it! Foilholio’s kite doesn’t look like it would fly at all.

This guy looks like he is on to something, connecting A bridles with pantyhose.
That drawing is not correct, it will fly, how exactly I will test soon :-)

Elastic lines have certainly been used on LEIs effectively to prevent tangles. Possible applications to foils are interesting thankyou for bringing it up. Also note on that revolution kite it would also help prevent tangles, which I believe is not the design intention there.
kitexpert wrote: P4 is a ten years old kite. In some sense it was advanced for sure
You have had 10 years and you and many other kite designers still don't understand it.
kitexpert wrote: but it had a strange bar feeling or more like lack of it.
Not really but if you fly LEIs a lot like you I guess it would be a bit weird like all foils.
kitexpert wrote:Wingtips looked bad depowered
Apparently looks precede function in your mind. I really really can tell you design LEIs now. I am going to throw you a rather large bone here but the looks of the tips is critical to the function of the kite and it's design. Change that and it is no longer what it is.
kitexpert wrote: One reason why inflatables are so efficient in spite of their low AR's is how smooth they are.
But they are not efficient. That sure is going to rub your LEI design guff up the wrong way lol, but it is the truth. LEI's have appalling L/D, as tested and confirmed.
kitexpert wrote:that excessive drag round tube causes
Wrong and right. The tube aerodynamically is not exactly round, it has the top surface partially covered. Round things have interesting property where at certain speed and sizes they have very low drag. Problem is a kites speed is not fixed. I would guess LEIs display lower drag than foils at lower speed and why they depower so well. Foils have lower drag at higher speeds and why they win races.
kitexpert wrote: Also canopy itself has better surface quality than what it is in any foil kite
No it has no solidity, the struts provide that. The flapping quality does have an interesting application particularly in surfing, as seen on strutless and single skins.
kitexpert wrote:Your claims I was contradicting myself are just stupid.
How is it stupid when there is proof and I just gave it to you?
kitexpert wrote:You constantly mess the scale of things
Me mess the scale? I am not the one claiming something that does exist (camber change, shape change, etc) doesn't. That would be you, MR "Expert".
kitexpert wrote:just don't want to understand
LoL f.uck you too.
kitexpert wrote: I must say your tweakings are a bit like alchemy or trying to make a perpetuum mobile, mostly waste of time.
And you know transmutation of elements is real it can be actually be done, do some reading on Nuclear Physics, and Physics in general while your at it. Perpetual motion who knows, obviously not yet but I am certain our understanding of things has still to change, we and I do not know everything by a very large margin. As to your poor attack on me it is a joke. My tweakings and improved understanding has helped many people. I am here to exchange ideas and help you should try the same.


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