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short lines

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TomW
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short lines

Postby TomW » Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:34 pm

I'm trying to get my head around the geometry of short lines on a foil kite.

So if I loop a kite on short lines the line angle in relationship to me will be greater. As the kites loop radius is still the same and that loop circle is closer to me. right?
It might be more difficult to loop with shorter lines?

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Re: short lines

Postby Macster » Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:35 pm

Lol. I wonder this too. Like on a bicycle speedo when you put the magnet on the spokes. Once you set the wheel diametre it doesnt matter if the magnet is near the centre of the wheel hub or the tyre. It still measures the same...

In experience I have found the loop arch to be the same on 27m lines versus 19m lines if you fish poll the bar however the loops are quicker on shorter lines due to the kite being more responsive. Also with the long lines of you do a loop with the bar pulled only half way in the power is way stronger cause you can do a huge, wide sweeping loop through the power zone.

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Re: short lines

Postby Regis-de-giens » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:28 pm

That is all right ! This also means that :
- in long lines, kite loops closer to the middle of the wind window=More powerful
- for a loop in the same wind window angle you need to pull less on one line with long lines = more powerful since better L/D ratio of te kite = more speed and power.

This is why loop with long lines is more powerfull for light wind but also longuer pull from an extremity of the window to the other (good for waterstart but trickier for transitions with too long power phase).

A gust also implies a change in the location of the apparent wind window , and the kite becomes more (too...) powerful by the time it reaches its new apparent edge of the window. With long lines it requires more time to travel up to this new angle , longer time during which you have to face the overpower ... so gusty winds are less confortable with long lines .

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jakemoore
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Re: short lines

Postby jakemoore » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:28 am

I made 7 and 15 meter bars just for kicks. 30->24->20 is less noticeable except that you can get more power with a bigger loop and higher up. As it gets really short, the loop goes almost all the way from the left to right and top to bottom in the window. The wingtip of my HL 7 will hit the water half of the times I loop the kite unless I really pull a leader line for a stalled out turn. Water start is much more difficult with a loop on 7 meter lines. Say the board is to the right and you dive the kite right to left to start, by the time it has power its pulling you off the front of the board. Much more wind is needed.

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Re: short lines

Postby foilholio » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:17 am

You can really get a lot more range out of kites, particularly the high end, by changing their line lengths. It was sad when flysurfer dropped their line segments.

Changing line lengths, changes the area of the window. Kites speed is still much the same, just the space it plays in is different. The position it is in the window has the biggest effect on it's angle of attack. With a bigger window the more time it can spend at a high AoA, particularly to the wind, but also more time being at top speed.

TomW
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Re: short lines

Postby TomW » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:43 pm

Thanks guys. I'm playing with 25-20 lines. Not huge difference. Settled on 20 now. On my Hyperlink 9 if find it plenty fast now that I figured out how to turn it fast with correct trim.
I guess I have to stop thinking about it and just get out with 15m lines and try it more often.
Don't have more than 60-70 sessions a year including my kite vacations.

Wish I was retired or stinking rich so I could kite all the time....

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Re: short lines

Postby Macster » Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:06 am

Hey Tom, I have flown my Hyperlink 9m on 27, 23 and 20m lines. 20m lines was my favourite provided the wind was solid. I've just ordered a new Ozone V4 Foil race bar and opted for 17m lines after talking to lots of people but not actually being able to try it... So a little bit of a gamble but now that I have a 9m and a 12m foil kite, I figure I can sacrifice some light wind, low end for the advantages that come with slightly shorter lines than stock. Also, because I am not racing or doing really quick transitions, I figured I don't need to drop all the way down to 15m lines or even less to squeeze the very best responsiveness out of the kite.

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Re: short lines

Postby Mossy 757 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:48 pm

Macster wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:06 am
I figure I can sacrifice some light wind, low end
Once you figure out how to move the kite for power on shorter lines (more aggressive turning, more bold positioning in the wind window) I think you'll be surprised at how minimal the compromise here actually is.

I was nervous to try shorter than 20m lines myself, then just made a set of 16m lines to try, and boy...it's different, but I'm totally convinced that I'll never ride above 20 again, it's just too much fun being able to point the kite exactly where you want it and have it be there on time. I took out a 20m bar the other day and felt like a total, unqualified kook...so much lag and mushiness, felt terrible!

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Re: short lines

Postby foilholio » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:02 pm

I have flown off bridles, a few meters to 6,7-10,11, well lots of lengths. With shorter lines having space to turn is an issue. The main annoyance is to get power the amount of turning you need to do. It can become a lot of work.

Drift is much better on longer lines, the extra drag and height really helps. Short lines kite moves through the window quicker, making control in gusts much easier. Line is elastic as a percent of length, so less length means less play in the line so a more direct feel.

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davesails7
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Re: short lines

Postby davesails7 » Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:54 pm

Looping to get going is one thing, but if you are talking about looping through a jibe, you can go with much shorter lines. I've seen a 21m race kite looped on 15m lines not problem through a foiling jibe. When you're riding under the kite as it loops, the kite can pretty much stay in the same spot (relative to you).


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