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New to Foils, bought a Pansh A15 12m

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F-Bear
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Gear: Kites: Switch Element V3 9m, Switch Nitro V4 14m, Best Waroo 17m, Airush DNA 13m, Pansh A15 12m
Boards: Lightwave Wing, Slingshot Wakefoiler with H4 wing
Bars: Mash-up (favorite is older Airush with ozone trimmer, Switch CL, custom lines)
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New to Foils, bought a Pansh A15 12m

Postby F-Bear » Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:16 am

Hello All,

I've been reading this forum for all the Pansh advice I can get (don't wanna afford a name-brand foil, since I have never flown one) and decided on a A15 12m. Got it yesterday and flew it today. I'm hoping this thread can help anyone considering a Pansh, as I intend to document my "journey" with it here. The info I have found here has been very helpful.

A bit about me....I've been kiting since the c-kite days, but don't get much water time due to our low winds and gusty winds and tree-lined lakes (small launch area). So I do mountain board with a kite as much as I can. I'd say i'm a decent kite flyer (LEI kites), and have flown small 2-line foils (2m, 3.5 meter) with a skateboard on asphalt. My goal is to GET ON THE WATER MORE hence my interest in foil kites. I've also recently gotten a hydrofoil board, the Slingshot H4 wing. Amazingly enough, got up and rode it on the first pull behind a boat. First time on a strapless board, first time on a hydrofoil. Not bragging....just amazed. I skate a lot so maybe that helped? Totally addicting, even behind a boat. Can't wait to try it and learn how to hydrofoil with a kite ! Just need MORE WIND. Or a foil kite !

So I've always wanted a 4-line foil, but just to expensive....can't justify it. But obviously, they are the hot setup for low wind and a hydrofoil. Enter Pansh ! Read this forum, including the 48-page one focusing on the A15. After much thought....I took the plunge and got one. Comparing the kite to other foils is impossible for me, but the stitching and such compared to my LEI seems a bit less durable. I have Switch kites (9m Element, 14m Nitro) and they are pretty bulletproof...and heavy. Especially the Nitro. But maybe foils don't need to be as bulletproof? I do not know. I also got a very nice surprise in that my kite has orange highlights, orange is my color. Nice. Overall, first impression of this kite is very positive. Note that you get zero instructions, so if you buy a Pansh kite you need to do your homework.

Today's first flight was EXCELLENT. The wind was literally 3-5 knots. I had a normal LEI bar, and hooked it up. Getting the kite inflated took a bit, but once it did wow it is so fun to fly. I could not believe how it just hung in the air. Or how it seems very difficult (maybe impossible?) to get it to "hindenburg" ( a big problem here....with winds going up and down and shifting directions)...the kite just drifts back. At one point it overflew me at zenith ( I did this on purpose to see what would happen) so much I turned around so I could see it..CRAZY ! No LEI can do that. To my amazement the kite just floated back, happy as a clam. SWEET ! Really cool to stall it and bring it down straight downwind of me too(yeah, try THAT with a LEI !! ) and then move the bar out a bit to get it to go up again. I could even just make it sit there....wow. This may be what I'm looking for....

My bar (franken bar...I like to build them up to get exactly what I want) has about 24 inches of throw, and around 14 of depower. Played around a lot with trim settings. With trim set to full power, the kite steered REALLY well but I think was choked unless I moved the bar pretty far out. With the trim set at mega-depower, the kite flew well but the steering lines where super-slack so I had to grab them to turn. Very interesting. Seems like I can't access the total AoA range of this kite using my normal bar, unless I include the trim system. Also, it seems to me the kite likes to fly with a lot less depower than I am used too. I ran with it too, and that was so fun.....the kite would just hang there at 10 o-clock with minimal adjustment by me. The bar pressure is non-existent, just like the forum told me. I think I prefer a bit more bar pressure ! But no big deal.

Probably the next step is to keep it on this bar (it has 20 meter lines) and try some landboarding with it. I probably could have done it today, but did not have the landboard with me. Bummer. After 2 solid hours of flying, time to go home so I landed it straight downwind by stalling it, then grabbed both steering lines and pulled them in, and walked them up to the kite. Easy. Not sure how this would work in stronger wind though. Folded kite over, unzipped the zipper. Rolled up my lines to the mixer (nice to see one live and in person...what a cool concept) and then rolled up the kite (keeping the bridle in the kite) , placed the bar on the rolled-up kite, folded it over and put back in bag. Wow, so easy. Ha ha we'll see how these scary bridles treat me next time I get this kite out, that is a HUGE difference to my LEI.

In summary, I think the Pansh folk are making a decent kite. For me, the price point allows me try a foil and fly a kite (and hopefully landboard and/or hydrofoil) in low winds. Would love to compare it to a fancy-pants foil, but those don't exist here. We only have like 3 or 4 kiteboarders in the area. Learning about foils is also going to be fun, I like things that fly and foils are very different than LEI.

I do have some questions.....

The Z lines where mega-slack at all times, as others have stated about this kite. Should I shorten them a bit? Or just leave it alone? Not even sure what they are doing....but they must be doing something useful.

Not sure what type of bar I should build up for this kite...right now I am thinking of a 2:1 pulley bar (my first ! ) with a clam cleat for trim. No 5th line, flag to single center line. OR....build a bar (isn't that a store...oh wait that is for Bears) with a ton of throw and a clam cleat for trim, no 5th, flag to single center line. Any comments on these two options is appreciated. I got a set of the 15m lines from Pansh, so that is what I intend to use for this dedicated bar.

When flying a foil..is it possible to get a ton of depower when the kite is moving through the power window? To me, today, it did not seem like I could depower it as much as I could my LEI kites...i can loop them (in higher wind too) and push out the bar and the pull is minimal. Trying to understand foil kites here...looked like it will fly with power hanging on just the A (maybe A and B and C? ) with fully slack rear lines. This is obviously different than LEI. Depower on the fly is sort of IMPORTANT to me since our winds are gusty. And by gusty I mean 2X the wind speed is typical. You learn good kite flying skills flying here...I laugh hard when go to coast, kites so easy to fly ! Anyway, having quick access to the kites maximum depower is why I am thinking of a 2:1 pulley bar...but how much can you depower this kite? Is 90% or so even possible for a foil when it is moving? Like I said, I'm learning. But so far, LOVE foils !

Thanks for listening. Sorry if this is long and jumps around to much. I'm not a writer.

If anyone has any questions about the kite, please feel free to ask. And I'll post again after mountain boarding with it. If that session goes well, may try some water with my hydrofoil.

F-Bear

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PugetSoundKiter
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Re: New to Foils, bought a Pansh A15 12m

Postby PugetSoundKiter » Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:18 pm

Hi - I've set up A15 18m and 15m on a 55cm 2:1 bar which I think works fine. I've set up an A15 12m on an old flysurfer 68cm 1:1 bar which I also think works fine. The 12m seems to be small enough that it did not need the 2:1 advantage for depower/throw. I used the long bar because, like you, I agree that the steering lines need to be pulled more. Since I use them on the water I am trying to get grunt under higher loading, you may be searching for more finesse with land sports under less pull. If you like tinkering with bars, maybe try a 2:1 setup and make a long 1:1 bar and let us know what you like. Play with bridle adjustments too, what works for the 18m may be different than the 12m as it is 2/3rds the size. I added 5th lines to the kites because using them on the water powered the drag is not a big deal, I can get overpowered and self landing is less tangles/spinning. I probably would not add 5th lines if I was using them on land in under to medium powered conditions. Congratulations on starting your foil kite collection, make room in the garage... :lol:

foilholio
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Re: New to Foils, bought a Pansh A15 12m

Postby foilholio » Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:13 pm

F-Bear wrote: but the stitching and such compared to my LEI seems a bit less durable
Pansh stitch work is a little rougher that say flysurfer, but still fine.
F-Bear wrote: I have Switch kites (9m Element, 14m Nitro) and they are pretty bulletproof...and heavy. Especially the Nitro.
Switch kites are very heavy, one reason I don't like them. The performance of something like the nitro I find horrible compared to high aspect foils.
F-Bear wrote: But maybe foils don't need to be as bulletproof? I do not know.
Foils are very flexible and because of that can be built lighter and still be more bullet proof than LEIs in many ways. The small foils sub 6-8m are prone to exploding internally when hitting the ground/water because of the speeds they can achieve in higher winds. The Pansh magnetic valves seem a good solution to this but no extensive testing I know has confirmed the effectiveness.
F-Bear wrote:Overall, first impression of this kite is very positive.
Yes when I first got a Pansh, there was a lot of negative talk about them and little positive. I was and am still very impressed with the quality given the extreme low cost. I think if a brand like Flysurfer or North sold near this price point they would capture most of the market.

I hope Pansh continues to improve. A really good bar would go a long way. Bars can be much simpler and much much cheaper than even Pansh has them now.
F-Bear wrote:Today's first flight was EXCELLENT.
Awesome!
F-Bear wrote:The wind was literally 3-5 knots.
Once inflated you can actively fly some foils down to 1-2knots standing.
F-Bear wrote:I could not believe how it just hung in the air
Efficiency and weight.
F-Bear wrote: Or how it seems very difficult (maybe impossible?) to get it to "hindenburg"
It is technically possible if wind stops, but rare enough to say never. Foils will collapse and do weird things especially in gusty winds and when tuned for more camber. They are most stable directly overhead. In that position they are most balanced and less likely to do weird stuff. It is the best position to drift them say on waves if you want slack lines to surf free of the kite. You can also position them by over sheeting as deep as you like in the window.
F-Bear wrote: At one point it overflew me at zenith ( I did this on purpose to see what would happen)
Yep I think I have flown one a full line length upwind into the water on a wave before, lol.
F-Bear wrote:No LEI can do that
There is and has been LEIs that can do it. Because LEIs can hindenberg it is not a good thing to overfly which puts them in hindenberg position.
F-Bear wrote: Seems like I can't access the total AoA range of this kite using my normal bar, unless I include the trim system.
A15 needs a lot of bar throw/trim, because of the B bridle position on the kite being so far back. This is not the same for all foils, some have quite short bar throw. My mod to the A15 reduces bar throw a lot.
F-Bear wrote: I think I prefer a bit more bar pressure ! But no big deal.
My mod, wac line, more camber and pulley bar all increase bar pressure. Choose your poison :-)
F-Bear wrote:Not sure how this would work in stronger wind though.
It gets harder the more wind. I use all 4 lines to have more grip. In fact using only the rears will often cause foils to invert fly in reverse. The single line flag works well on the A15. I just pulled by hand the 18m in while flagged but still in the air in 18-20knots. It was a confined landing so no other way.
F-Bear wrote: Ha ha we'll see how these scary bridles treat me next time I get this kite out, that is a HUGE difference to my LEI.
Just be gently never pull hard to make knots, shake them loose, toss and tease at them if stuck together. You can wrap the bar past the mixer up into the bridles. More wrapped on the bar means less to tangle.
F-Bear wrote: In summary, I think the Pansh folk are making a decent kite. For me, the price point allows me try a foil and fly a kite (and hopefully landboard and/or hydrofoil) in low winds. Would love to compare it to a fancy-pants foil, but those don't exist here. We only have like 3 or 4 kiteboarders in the area. Learning about foils is also going to be fun, I like things that fly and foils are very different than LEI.
Exactly this!
F-Bear wrote: The Z lines where mega-slack at all times, as others have stated about this kite. Should I shorten them a bit? Or just leave it alone? Not even sure what they are doing....but they must be doing something useful.
Sure shorten them. Shorter is more camber, so more power, less stable, less upwind ( usually). Easy enough to change the length of Z back and forth. I have knots to move it on. Do you need a pic?
F-Bear wrote: When flying a foil..is it possible to get a ton of depower when the kite is moving through the power window? To me, today, it did not seem like I could depower it as much as I could my LEI kites
A15 does not have as high depower as many other foils. Also because of the long throw depower is hard to access. Foils have less depower than many LEIs, but for some reason I and others find Foils have more range. I think it's because of their smoothness.

F-Bear wrote:looked like it will fly with power hanging on just the A
It should fully depower with only tension in A.
F-Bear wrote: This is obviously different than LEI. Depower on the fly is sort of IMPORTANT to me since our winds are gusty.
Foils and Lei are different. You can improve the depower on a foil by using shorter lines.
F-Bear wrote:Is 90% or so even possible for a foil when it is moving?
Not sure. The Pyscho4 has very good depower, but I would say still not LEI. You will need to try other foils,

F-Bear
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Gear: Kites: Switch Element V3 9m, Switch Nitro V4 14m, Best Waroo 17m, Airush DNA 13m, Pansh A15 12m
Boards: Lightwave Wing, Slingshot Wakefoiler with H4 wing
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Re: New to Foils, bought a Pansh A15 12m

Postby F-Bear » Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:27 pm

Hello all !

Well it is time to report on my second session with this kite. I built up a 2:1 bar.....it has 2:1 ratio for the steering lines and also 2:1 ratio for the trimming system. For those interested, the bar is made of an old Slingshot 60cm bar, Pansh 15m lines, a sailing block (pulley) for the trim system (which I'll replace with an ozone trimmer as soon as I get another one), and a Switch chicken loop. Oh, and I put a brake strap (is that what it is called?) between the two steering lines so I can easily self-launch and land. And it makes it easy to reverse launch too. The bar throw of this setup is about 700mm, with another 500mm or so on the trim system. Since everything is 2:1, mega-range ! I ran a 5th line since the pulley has no way to do a proper single front line release. Once I swap in an ozone trimmer, need to decide if I want to retain the 5th line or not. I love building up bars that fit my exact needs...and this bar does two things that I think is pretty cool. First, the 2:1 on the steering lines is done without any pulley...the Slingshot bar has these nice big inner-radius attachments at the ends of the floats which where just perfect. They where done this way I believe to accommodate the original "oh crap" loops, so the line would slide through easily. Remember those? Yeah this bar is old. The second cool thing is you wanna mount the end of the steering line as high up on the center lines as possible, so the angle between the steering line stays small at all times. If it "opens up" you quickly lose the 2:1 ratio. The steering lines are mounted up high on the trim pulley, which also has the bonus benefit of making the trim system 2:1 also....when you adjust trim the center lines adjust at 1:1 ratio as usual, but the steering lines also get affected at 1:1 so you basically have a 2:1 depower system. Cool. But enough of the bar....

Went out yesterday with the Pansh 12m to try the new bar out. Wind was about 8kts. Got the kite launched, using a stake and hooking the chicken loop and brake strap into a big carabiner attached to the stake. This whole process is new to me, but pretty straightforward. Got the kite up and kept thinking "man....that doesn't look right". It didn't look full of air..eventually I realized I forget to close the freaking zipper on the back of the kite ! Yeah, newbie to foils here. landed and fixed that oversight.

Upon getting the kite up again, oh man the 2:1 bar is the BOMB !!! Steering was way better, felt more like a LEI to me. And now I have actual BAR PRESSURE which is just awesome. It is not heavy or anything, but just right. All in all, I really liked how this bar made the kite fly, I screwed around for about an hour trying to find the optimum trim location. It was easy to trim so at full sheet-in (bar to chicken loop) the kite would back-stall, yet when I push bar away I got a lot of depower. Just felt like a regular LEI to me, which is good since that is what I'm used too. The bar did have some niggling issues which I need to address, so landed and packed up for the day.

For those interested in a Pansh, and wondering how tough it is....well I crashed it pretty hard with zero damage ! At one point, was doing a reverse launch and got it way up, probably 45 degrees or so. Grabbed a single steering line so I could spin the kite around so it points up...but the brake strap had jammed itself into the trim pulley and no steering...I also had grabbed the bar and before I realized what was happening did a full-power dive down into the ground. Kite hit hard enough to bounce about 2 or 3 feet back up into the air. Crap. I was fearful my new kite was trashed....an impact like that could have ripped an LEI tube wide open.....but this kite took it in stride. No damage. Nice.

Also, I have no idea why some folk poop on Pansh....this kite flies GREAT. Especially on a 2:1 bar. I don't have any experience on name-brand foils, but for me this kite is fine. In that weak wind, I was surprised just how hard it would turn, and also the amount of depower I could get. At one point I took the plunge and zipped the kite across the window, which pulled me pretty hard, and then pushed out the bar and BLAMMO the power shut down. Nice ! IMHO if someone buys this kite with not a lot of foil experience and flies it on their normal bar, they may be disappointed because it just didn't work very well for me like that...you can't access the full sheeting range of the kite (unless you got long freaking arms) without using the trim, but a 2:1 solves this. I am sure the seasoned foil fliers are used to constantly adjusting the trim system? That certainly works but for me and our winds, I gotta have tons of instant power adjustability using the bar...no time for grabbing the trim when the wind decides to go 2x.

I just flew it static. Had plans to use the landboard but the issues with the bar (brake strap kept jamming and locking up my steering control) prevented that. Need to re-engineer the brake strap...but how do you self-land and launch without one? I also need to try out the 5th line and see if it is worth the extra clap-trap...this bar is already way more busy than I like. I will play around again on a regular 1:1 bar, as I far prefer their simplicity.

In conclusion....I am liking this kite more and more and foils in general. Hopefully I can update the bar soon and then try this kite on my landboard. And then, once I get comfy with the kite while landboarding, take it on the water with the hydrofoil. This thing could totally revolutionize my water kiting....it if stays up in lulls then I can get on the water way more than I can now.

Thank you Foilholio and PugetSoundKiter...really appreciate the feedback from my previous post.

F-Bear

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Re: New to Foils, bought a Pansh A15 12m

Postby Regis-de-giens » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:51 pm

yes A15 is a nice and gentle kite , I like it in 9m2 on snow without any mod nor turbo-bar (that I appreciated on Aurora 22m): I made my first tacks on snow-ski with it! it works on hydrofoil of course; medium ratio kite are so forgiving that it helps progressing a lot and you are not afraid by slack lines during transitions learning; discovering foil kites as you did with a A15 at such low price is worth it, unbeatable price vs quality ratio.

Now if you like this kind of ride and ready to spend more, some recent kites will give you a bit more appreciated agility and wind range; not compulsary but pleasant ... and if you want to push further the flight in even lower wind , some kites are even lighter and more boosting during the waterstart (A15 is very smooth during loops and slightly subject to backstall if you are sheeting-in a bit too much during the loop).

Nice review that will certainly inspire foil some kite-hesitants.

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Re: New to Foils, bought a Pansh A15 12m

Postby Regis-de-giens » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:53 pm

yes A15 is a nice and gentle kite, I like it in 9m2 on snow without any mod nor turbo-bar (that I appreciated on Aurora 22m): I made my first tacks on snow-ski with it! it works on hydrofoil of course; medium ratio kite are so forgiving that it helps progressing a lot and you are not afraid by slack lines during transitions learning; and relaunch is excellent in case of major error . Discovering foil kites as you did with a A15 at such low price rather than not testing foils is worth it, unbeatable price vs quality ratio , so good choice !

Now if you like this kind of ride and ready to spend more, some recent kites will give you a bit more appreciated agility and wind range; not compulsary but pleasant ... and if you want to push further the flight in even lower wind , some kites are even lighter and more boosting during the waterstart (A15 is very smooth during loops and slightly subject to backstall if you are sheeting-in a bit too much during the loop).

Nice review that will certainly inspire some kite-hesitants.

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Re: New to Foils, bought a Pansh A15 12m

Postby foilholio » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:03 am

F-Bear wrote: Also, I have no idea why some folk poop on Pansh....this kite flies GREAT
To be honest not all their kites have flow great, some have been released with design and manufacture problems. The design issues often get fixed quietly, but still the kites get sold like that. They offer a refund which some people seem to be able to get, others rely on Paypal. The A15 is one of their best kites yet. They seemed to go a route with a lot of prototypes and testing before releasing it. Which means few design issues. Other kites that are second or third generation, like the Aurora 2 will have fixes and improvements on the original design. These kites seem to always get good reviews. If your extra cautious you could stick to the later versions. Some first version kites have received a lot of community attention and new modifications have been developed that improve them a lot. For example the Aurora 1, Genesis and even the A15 now.

For the price the kites are a mere fraction of the Big brand models. Something like 1/6 the cost of a flysurfer. You can't be expecting a flysurfer or complain you didn't get one for that money. But still people do. With Pansh you are getting say 80% the design and quality of a big brand, for very little money.

A15 is quite a unique design. Will be interesting to see where a version 2 goes because there is plenty of options and potential.
F-Bear wrote: I am sure the seasoned foil fliers are used to constantly adjusting the trim system?
Personally I never trim while riding.

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Re: New to Foils, bought a Pansh A15 12m

Postby windrider1 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:44 am

How much did pansh pay you to post this propaganda. everyone knows that pansh is garbage and 90% of pansh kites dont fly right and are defective in some way. They are usually modified to death by the new owner or just thrown in the garbage or if u are lucky and used paypal u might get a refund in 3 months . now i know the 10% who actually got a working kite by accident and i do mean accident are gonna start chiming in on how great pansh kites are what a bargain they got . Im all for cheap kites and stuff but pansh is neither bargain nor cheap considering the kite u just spent a few hundred dollars for dosent fly right and u dont know what the problem is. :bye:

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Re: New to Foils, bought a Pansh A15 12m

Postby foilholio » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:05 am

I get payed nothing from Pansh, no discounts nothing. I support them because I think they are a good brand, that offers the best valve product you can find in the kite industry. Who could imagine 2018 and the cheapest kite new is a foil kite.

I also don't like many resellers as their bend usually does not go with mine, liking foil kites, but also because they add lots of cost and little to nothing of value ,especially to me. I think costs are the primary barrier to our sport growing.

I have had quite a few Pansh and all worked and functioned as designed. The only issues I had was the poorly design Z bridles on the Genesis. Which is easy to fix as have many people particularly in Italy, who enjoy that model. That's the same Genesis that was the genesis to all your antipansh hate. The other issue was the stitching on the sleeves of some lines wasn't sufficient. I think I payed $20-30 for them ,again expectations, the lines are fine and strong.

Windrider, given what I have read from you, you just have unreasonable expectations. You buy a Hyundai and expect a Porsche. You haven't had a correct understanding of how to tune foils. Maybe that has changed I hope, but try be a bit more humble, there is chance you are wrong on somethings, as may I be.

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Re: New to Foils, bought a Pansh A15 12m

Postby joriws » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:50 pm

I think Pansh reputation is earned one by disappointed purchasers getting 200USD "kite". I know people outside of Kiteforum which had ordered Pansh - tried to tweak it with high hopes that I can do it and finally quit - it cannot be fixed. Now his Pansh is probably keeping fire wood dry. I am not saying A15 is bad kite - but about the brand reputation. And I see you (foilholio & regis) now try to clear the reputation. It is not really done on Kiteforum but do Youtube-videos proving that Pansh is a great kite from unboxing (like more expensive foil brands are) and it handles aging (bridle shrink, porosity, fabric stretch) well. And that Pansh does not contain poisonous chemicals.

Today we seek information from Youtube - there is the power to make it right. For example I'd be more interested in Lecca-kite video reviewed by Horst Sergio than any of the Pansh kites. Or Monjet kite if seeking single skin kite.


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