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Sonic FR 11 Long Mixer Test

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direnc
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Sonic FR 11 Long Mixer Test

Postby direnc » Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:08 pm

Hi,

I have a Sonic FR 11 that I got second hand. I flew it and, while it does fly, it simply does not feel right.
I decided to do a long mixer test and created this spreadsheet for it:
sonicFR11longmixertest.jpg
sonicFR11longmixertest.jpg (73.87 KiB) Viewed 766 times
Then I measured one side of the kite and got this:
sonicFR11longmixertestResults.jpg
sonicFR11longmixertestResults.jpg (77.29 KiB) Viewed 766 times
I was expecting more shrinkage towards the tips of the kite, but the shrinkage seems quite uniform along each bridle row.
In summary B and C are shrunk by 5 cm, and BR by 8cm, which should be enough cause to make this kite not fly right I guess.

I wonder what would be the best fix for this.
a) Shorten A by 5cm, and extend BR/Z by 3cm
b) Extend B and C by 5cm and BR/Z by 8
c) Some other way you may suggest.

Also, I'd like to do this in a clean way that won't cause tangles if possible.
I have not tried, but does the mixer adjustment range allow extending B and C by 5cm?
Can I move the brmain line on a knot on the C pulley line as a way to extend BR/Z?

If there's any interest, I prepared the same spreadsheet for a Speed 3 12, as well.

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davesails7
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Re: Sonic FR 11 Long Mixer Test

Postby davesails7 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:52 am

What are the measurements in your first 4 columns of the first table? Are they from the pigtails to the kite or from the top of theixer to the kite?
direnc wrote: Also, I'd like to do this in a clean way that won't cause tangles if possible.
On my sonic fr 15m. I added a pigtail made of q-power line just above the mixer and never had any tangling issues. It was just a doubled over line with an 8 knot.

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Re: Sonic FR 11 Long Mixer Test

Postby foilholio » Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:24 am

direnc wrote: I wonder what would be the best fix for this.
a) Shorten A by 5cm, and extend BR/Z by 3cm
b) Extend B and C by 5cm and BR/Z by 8
c) Some other way you may suggest.
These are all options. You also need to consider the pulley lines shrinking and limiting your depower.

Correct it to standard, then play with Z length till you are happy. You will most likely need settings different from standard, as every ones preference is different but also, kite still has spanwise changes and the fabric shape changes too. Those changes will cause the kite to perform different to standard, so you use non standard settings to fix it.

In reality measurements are not too important, adjusting kite gradually till you are happy is the way. Measurements do help know what has changed and how to fix if you have no idea though.
davesails7 wrote:It was just a doubled over line with an 8 knot.
Yep that is how I make most adjustments. Use the same thing with thin fishing lines for LCL extensions at the kite for span changes and fine tune or mods.

direnc
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Re: Sonic FR 11 Long Mixer Test

Postby direnc » Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:58 am

davesails7 wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:52 am
What are the measurements in your first 4 columns of the first table? Are they from the pigtails to the kite or from the top of theixer to the kite?
Those are from top of mixer to kite.
davesails7 wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:52 am
direnc wrote: Also, I'd like to do this in a clean way that won't cause tangles if possible.
On my sonic fr 15m. I added a pigtail made of q-power line just above the mixer and never had any tangling issues. It was just a doubled over line with an 8 knot.
Thank you. I was worried about the knot causing tangles.
foilholio wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:24 am
Correct it to standard, then play with Z length till you are happy. You will most likely need settings different from standard, as every ones preference is different but also, kite still has spanwise changes and the fabric shape changes too. Those changes will cause the kite to perform different to standard, so you use non standard settings to fix it.
After a long mixer tuned to zero, have you observed a pattern in the way Flysurfer kites deviate from their standart setup? And a pattern in the method to fix it?

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Re: Sonic FR 11 Long Mixer Test

Postby foilholio » Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:34 am

I never really use the long mixer test. Each Flysurfer model is a little different but they seem to like a bit less camber with age, so looser Z. But that is what you would discover measuring them as you did.

You shouldn't notice much changing Z 2cm but will at 4cm. It is quite safe and easy to play with it's length. Much easier to understand altering Z than the Flysurfer method. Altering B and C also changes the B limit which complicates things unnecessarily.

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Re: Sonic FR 11 Long Mixer Test

Postby a99 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:26 am

I also have sonic 18 and have the same shrinking problem, but mine bc is less, about 3cm. I prolonged for 3,5 cm z line and did 1-2 cm more bc on mixer than a.

Still i think honestly speaking Flysurfer knowing that this shrinking problem goes for all their foil race especially kites must release instructions how to do approximately for new retuning in such cases !
Just rough recommendation for example if shrinking is 3 cm how to tune bcz. Of course their are more happy when people buying new set of bridles for few hundreds but still, if sich problem of shrinking goes in 1-2 year of using (and it is) than something is wrong still in materials provided i thing and compamy must release recommendations at least !

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Re: Sonic FR 11 Long Mixer Test

Postby foilholio » Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:32 pm

Shrink is not a flysurfer problem per se but a prestretched dyneema problem. Any kite with a bridle or lines (all kites) are affected by it. Foils have a lot of bridles so most affected.

a99
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Re: Sonic FR 11 Long Mixer Test

Postby a99 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:31 pm

Even if its not Flysurfer problem their can release official recommendations for used and shrinked their foils retunings.
Still from their not any word kr recommendation how to do retuning in shrinking cases as for bcz can be lot of differences. Still shrinking usualy is in 2-5 cm i think, so, still their can think about their customer if used their foil.

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Re: Sonic FR 11 Long Mixer Test

Postby HaylingBilly » Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:08 pm

I have been doing the same thing with my Second hand FR 11 over the past 2 days as well; just using the A lines though. The worst shrinkage by far was in the mixer, one C Pulleyline was 91.5cm and another 95.5cm instead of 100 and the A Pulleylines were out as well by 7 and 9 cm. I think you can add a short line above the B and C-Main but I had a spare set of Pulleylines so have installed them. Now at least both sides are set the same...
I based everything off A being 6641mm minus whatever shrinkage and called this 0. Then B should be 5687 ( -954) and C should be 6158 (-48.3) I marked these distances up A-Main and adjusted the B-Main and C-Main knot lengths so the pulleys sat against their marks.
Both A's had actually shrunk by 91mm and both Z's by 124mm so i just added a 30mm line below Z-Main to adjust for the differing shrink.

Having done all this I ran the test the other way round, as Gunnar shows in his video with an R1. Funny thing is that i am now (at the kite end of the lines) A = 0, B=-65, C=0.......I was expecting A=0, B=-44, C=+17.....

I am going to fly the kite like this and let the mixer and knots bed in and then try to adjust again. I suspect that i may have to Lengthen C-Main at the pulley by the 17mm i am short and also B-Main the same. Once I have it back to how it should be, then I hope any adjustments I shall make will, at least, be from a known position rather than from the unknown that i had before.

Just been looking at your first table. I have got quite confused with + and - lengths. To my mind your back to front... If A = 5441 and B = 5397, then A-B does = 44, but as I have been measuring from A then B is actually 44mm less and so a -44. You may have a system but just be sure its the right way round........Or correct me gently, I'm a beginner at Long Mixer Tests.

direnc
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Re: Sonic FR 11 Long Mixer Test

Postby direnc » Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:21 pm

HaylingBilly wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:08 pm
Having done all this I ran the test the other way round, as Gunnar shows in his video with an R1. Funny thing is that i am now (at the kite end of the lines) A = 0, B=-65, C=0.......I was expecting A=0, B=-44, C=+17.....

I am going to fly the kite like this and let the mixer and knots bed in and then try to adjust again. I suspect that i may have to Lengthen C-Main at the pulley by the 17mm i am short and also B-Main the same. Once I have it back to how it should be, then I hope any adjustments I shall make will, at least, be from a known position rather than from the unknown that i had before.

Just been looking at your first table. I have got quite confused with + and - lengths. To my mind your back to front... If A = 5441 and B = 5397, then A-B does = 44, but as I have been measuring from A then B is actually 44mm less and so a -44. You may have a system but just be sure its the right way round........Or correct me gently, I'm a beginner at Long Mixer Tests.
This is my third kite I am doing the long mixer test, so I am not very experienced either.
I calculated lengths from top of the mixer to the kite. Ignored the mixer stretch, because it can be zeroed easily, or is somewhat irrelevant when doing a long mixer test. It's only the kite end that matters, and no need to measure the whole length of bridle. Only differences relative to A should be enough. Compensating for pulley line or mixer shrink is not really the aim with long mixer test, because the shrink in the bridle lines is much more than the mixer part. The mixer may matter only if the shrinkage starts to limit it's movement, but I am not sure if it happens with this kite.

I believe I got the polarity of the differences right, but does not really matter as long as you are not confused about what positive or negative actually means.
The first row A-C , and last three rows were a bit confusing. Confusion starts when you expect a line to be longer and it turns out to be shorter because of shrinkage, etc...


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