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Sonic FR 11 Long Mixer Test

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a99
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Re: Sonic FR 11 Long Mixer Test

Postby a99 » Fri Aug 31, 2018 1:36 pm

As i understand there is lot of posts about Sonic bridle shrinking, but no one of Speed kites of Flysurfer bridles shrinking. Speed bridles not shrinking so much comparing with Sonic's ?

twig
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Re: Sonic FR 11 Long Mixer Test

Postby twig » Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:53 pm

davesails7 wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:49 pm
HaylingBilly wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:26 pm
Now I have ended up at: a1(0), b1(80mm shorter), c1(60mm shorter), br1(150mm longer). I have pretty much run out of adjustment on C-Main, so I suspect the C pulley will be running up against the knot in C-Pulleyline with my bar pushed away; but for the kite to be so much more usable its worth it to me.
That's what stopped all tip truck issues on my sonic fr 15m also. I did the change by adding a 75mm pigtail to the a mains. This gives the same effect as shortening b, c, and z without any issues with pulley range.
I tried to fix front stall on my sonic fr 18m by shortening steering lines compared to my frontlines at the bar (250mm) a bit too much. Is that the same effect as putting extra pigtails at the "a mains"?
Still my kite frontstalls a bit in very light wind.

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Re: Sonic FR 11 Long Mixer Test

Postby foilholio » Sun Sep 02, 2018 3:55 pm

a99 wrote: As i understand there is lot of posts about Sonic bridle shrinking, but no one of Speed kites of Flysurfer bridles shrinking. Speed bridles not shrinking so much comparing with Sonic's ?
All prestretched UHMWPE fiber line (aka dyneema/spectra) shrinks. All kites use this prestretched line.
twig wrote: Is that the same effect as putting extra pigtails at the "a mains"?
Not even remotely. Try add 10cm to Z main instead.

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Re: Sonic FR 11 Long Mixer Test

Postby direnc » Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:56 am

I finally did the B+5 C+5 Z+8 on the mixer as suggested by the long mixer test. But the kite would not keep its tips open. Tips collapse as soon as I manage to open them by pulling the brake handle. Then I extended the Z by 4cm more, and the tips opened, but did collapse once in a while. Also, the bar pressure seems a bit high for a kite of this size (steering lines are calibrated equal).

I have a few questions.
Any problem with doing B+5 C+5 on the mixer? It's almost the limit it can be extended, and I wonder if it blocks somewhere... Maybe I should be extending the mixer via pigtails for this much of an extension?

Is B+5 C+5 Z+8 any different than just Z+3 ?

Any tips on how to fix this?
The problem is, since I got this kite second hand, I am not exactly sure how it's supposed to be flying normally, but does not feel right as it is now.

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Re: Sonic FR 11 Long Mixer Test

Postby HaylingBilly » Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:28 am

Hi direnc,
I adjusted my FR11 to what the line plan says and it would not open the tips at all, probably the same as you experienced.
Do a measure of the mixer and bridal combined by pegging the mixer into the ground and measuring the different line lengths at the underside of the middle of the canopy (I am sure you have done this 1000 times already!) but aim to get: a1(0), b1(80mm shorter), c1(60mm shorter), br1(150mm longer). With these settings, regardless of what the mixer test shows you should have a stable kite to work with.
If you find a canopy profile that works better for you, can you let me know?

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Re: Sonic FR 11 Long Mixer Test

Postby foilholio » Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:17 pm

OK let me explain a few things, most likely again, sigh, but from all over the place.

The long mixer test, this measures at one place on the span. Kites shrink with large differences on the span. These span differences will cause a lot but not all the tip problems.

You can fix line shrink with adjustment and/or restretching.

You have the mixer limit to B and the profile it creates. When you change B you change the limit and the profile unless you also changed C and Z in ratio.

You could change Z and C to get the same profile change as just changing B. For example if you B+5cm it is the same as Z -20cm, and C-10cm. -20cm is a very large change to Z and will test the stability of most kites, particularly high AR kites which already are very unstable.

Now had you measured the kite at the tip from memory you would most likely find Z in profile even more shrunk there. Say it was -10cm, you just made it say -30cm, which is getting nuts. I am not at all surprised you have tip issues.

Now lets look at exactly what you have done. B+5cm C+5cm Z+8cm. Lets remove Z so B+5cm-(8/4) and C+5cm-(8/2) equals B+3 and C+1. Convert B to Z equals Z-12cm(4x3). Z-12cm give C +6cm so you need -5cm to get to +1cm on C.

-12cm Z is a lot less than -20cm, but if you measure the tips you may see what sort of issue that could cause. Try the long mixer test at the tips. Otherwise just try extending Z and maybe correcting the B limit. Shortening Z in profile goes against everything I have seen with how bridles shrink.

Oh and B-8 C-6 Z+15 is the same as C+10 Z+47, not to mention the 8cm reduction in B limit, it's just seems totally nuts sorry. 47cm change to Z is crazy.

What is the problem yall are trying to fix? This is not rocket science, play with your Z length.

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Re: Sonic FR 11 Long Mixer Test

Postby direnc » Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:27 pm

foilholio wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:17 pm
OK let me explain a few things, most likely again, sigh, but from all over the place.
Thank you so much for your effort and patience! I really appreciate it!
I read your post a few times, and realized that my understanding of the mixer is quite lacking, and when I think about it do understand some of it but still have some stuff I have difficulty understanding. Please see my comments below.
foilholio wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:17 pm
The long mixer test, this measures at one place on the span. Kites shrink with large differences on the span. These span differences will cause a lot but not all the tip problems.
I did the long mixet test along whole span of the kite on one side, and the shrinkage seems almost uniform along the span. That's why I expected the mod to work. Here are the measurements from top of the mixer to kite:
sonicFR11longmixertestResultsTable.jpg
foilholio wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:17 pm
-12cm Z is a lot less than -20cm, but if you measure the tips you may see what sort of issue that could cause. Try the long mixer test at the tips. Otherwise just try extending Z and maybe correcting the B limit. Shortening Z in profile goes against everything I have seen with how bridles shrink.
You mention the B limit often, could you please explain what it is exactly?
foilholio wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:17 pm
Oh and B-8 C-6 Z+15 is the same as C+10 Z+47, not to mention the 8cm reduction in B limit, it's just seems totally nuts sorry. 47cm change to Z is crazy.
Those measurements from HaylingBilly are not the at the mixer, but at the kite end.
foilholio wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:17 pm
What is the problem yall are trying to fix? This is not rocket science, play with your Z length.
Second hand kites that are out of tune and the desire to make them fly as they should...
Again, thank you for your help and patience.

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Re: Sonic FR 11 Long Mixer Test

Postby foilholio » Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:11 am

direnc wrote: I did the long mixet test along whole span of the kite on one side


Interesting. I am impressed. At the end of the day measuring the whole kite to fix it has proven to me unnecessary. More numbers are always interesting though.

One thing though :-) what force did you use to measure the bridles? Flysurfer uses I believe 5kg and anything over 1-2kg will restretch some bridles... Two problems with measuring, restretch effect makes measuring a shrunk line almost impossible to measure in it's shrunk state and unless you carefully measure with exact forces you won't get precise measurements... or at least not numbers you can compare with flysurfer...
direnc wrote:the shrinkage seems almost uniform along the span
It does on your final DIFF numbers, though there is some variance. Your use of negatives and positives in your numbers are a bit confusing, I will just assume they all indicate shrink though they look as stretch.
direnc wrote:That's why I expected the mod to work.
Measurements may be wrong, current kite shape may not work with standard settings, differences measured may be enough to cause the problems. Overall many reasons measuring things can be a waste of time.
direnc wrote: You mention the B limit often, could you please explain what it is exactly?
When the mixer fully extends to depower, B hits a limit. This limit affects the depower of the kite. The mixer and kite bridles will shrink to reduce the B limit. This has a large effect on the kites performance. Kite will fly slower, depower less and stall easier.

People often reduce B to increase stability. This has two effects, making the profile more stable and reducing depower, also more stable. It is not necessary to alter B to get the more stable profile, Z and to a lesser extent C can do that. It is also not necessary to alter B to reduce depowering, you can do that with trim... Therefore it is not necessary to alter B to increase stability. It is however necessary to alter B by extending it to improve depower, but also extend C and Z so the profile is the same, as most should want.
direnc wrote: Those measurements from HaylingBilly are not the at the mixer, but at the kite end.
Thanks, confusing. If they are differences then may be more ok I guess. If they are measure changes then same as mixer or kite end, and crazy.
direnc wrote: Second hand kites that are out of tune and the desire to make them fly as they should...
Ok. Restore B limit at least at mixer, should be +25cm for most Flysurfer mixers. You will need mixer level at the +25cm, I did a thread on it and made it very complicated,lol. Need a link?

You could compensate on top of the B limit for B shrink at kite, I usually estimate 2cm, from my many measurings. As you have measured 5cm you could add that, though that is a lot, and I am doubting your measurements used 5kg. Maybe just use 2cm as my measurements are quite good. So make B limit 27cm.

You could redo your long mixer test if you want with 5kg at the center, but I never use a long mixer test so I don't think it's necessary. Lets forget that unless you insist :-)

Adjust Z till you are happy with the kite :-). You will have needed to make an extension or at least rearrange things for Z to fix the B limit. Use that to play with it's length till you are happy with how the kite flies. As has been stated a million times now longer Z= more stable, less power, lighter bar, better upwind, shorter Z is the opposite. Use the behaviour of those attributes to guide you in which different way you want to change Z. Unlike B and C, Z is much less sensitive to change and you will find adjusting it easier. You can even do a setup with knots and larks heads to quickly change even for different conditions.

If you want to get more involved, restretch your bridles. Particularly Z as most change occurs there. Need a link on that?
direnc wrote:Again, thank you for your help and patience.
Thank me when it's fixed :-)

I have spent a lot of time and effort to understand foil kites better. I like to help and can short cut your understanding to where I am now if you have the patience to read and understand what I write though it can be difficult for some I know. Do ask questions, no reason to pretend to be smart by remaining dumb.

I had to weed through many falsehoods about foils when I started with them. Very specific ones like line shrink/stretch, b limit stuff and then general things with relaunch and performance etc. stuff PMU posts lol.

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Re: Sonic FR 11 Long Mixer Test

Postby Nem0 » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:37 am

Maybe this helps...
https://youtu.be/93Te2HGlXwY

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Re: Sonic FR 11 Long Mixer Test

Postby Nem0 » Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:45 pm



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