Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

Flysurfer Sonic FR 15 Meter Tip Fold Problem Solved

For all foil kite riders


lightandfrost
Rare Poster
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:48 am
Kiting since: 0
Local Beach: e
Favorite Beaches: e
Style: onshore waveriding
Gear: v
Brand Affiliation: None

Flysurfer Sonic FR 15 Meter Tip Fold Problem Solved

Postby lightandfrost » Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:00 pm

Light and Frost(L&F) was asked to assist an owner of a Sonic FR 15 Meter kite in solving persistent tip fold problems. The kite would sometimes fly normally and then begin folding up at the tip latter during the session. Once the tip fold occurred the problem would remain until flight termination.

Several kite forums had threads concerning this problem which indicated this was not an isolated incident but no real solutions were provided.

L&F did the usual mixer test, looked for superficial damage and then did a line length audit. Most of the lines had shrunk 3 to 4 cm. But as Flysurfer kites experience an approx 1 to 2 cm shrinkage on most lines per year regardless of use, the shrinkage was considered normal.

During the inspection a hand was run inside the kite from the first outboard intake station 11-12 on the line plan along and thru the leading edge internal lateral circular vents toward the tip feeling for damage. The kite was then flown for a session by the owner. The flight was normal until the kite was dropped in the water and relaunched. The kite folded slightly on the water and was immediately airborne. There was very little water intake as no liquid exited the tip drains and only a slight wet sheen on one tip was seen and no line tangles, however the kite immediately began exhibiting various amounts of tip fold which could not be corrected regardless of how the kite was flown. The kite was returned to the beach. L&F suspected the vents mentioned above were being somehow constricted so a hand again run inside the kite opening the lateral vents on both tips. The kite was immediately flown and flight characteristics were again normal and remained normal till the tips were folded during poor handling wherein unrecoverable tip fold again occurred.

L&F is unsure the mechanism for this blockage but the only solution is to land the kite and open these vents manually by running a hand inside the kite as mentioned. The kite surprisingly can still be water launched in this condition and provides enough power to return to shore.

During a latter visual inspection of some of these circular vents a fraying almost to the point of being ripped was discovered although how such internal damage could occur in unknown.

foilholio
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2383
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:20 am
Kiting since: 1337
Local Beach: Ventura Beach
Favorite Beaches: Tarifa
Style: Airstyle
Gear: Foils
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Flysurfer Sonic FR 15 Meter Tip Fold Problem Solved

Postby foilholio » Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:57 pm

Tip collapse can be fixed with the bridles.

Internal vents? You mean the holes in the cell walls? no way they get blocked.

Internal damage to the walls are usually from crashing the kite. If you have any internal damage like rips to cell walls or broken straps it will affect the kite's flying.

User avatar
davesails7
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2081
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 7:36 pm
Kiting since: 2006
Local Beach: Virginia Beach
Style: Race
Gear: Delta Hydrofoil
Flysurfer Sonic2 9m,11m,18m
Sonic Race VMG 15m
OR Mako 130x35
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Flysurfer Sonic FR 15 Meter Tip Fold Problem Solved

Postby davesails7 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:53 pm

Sounds like problem is not solved.

I (and I think everyone with a sonic fr 15m) also had tip tuck issues. Mine was solved completely by lengthening the A mains by ~75mm using a pigtail.

There is a post above about sonic fr 11m with the same issue where shortening b, c, and z solved it (same effect as lengthening A main).

a99
Medium Poster
Posts: 89
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:10 am
Kiting since: 0
Favorite Beaches: Baltic sea
Gear: North, Liquid Force, Blade, Xenon laluz.
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Flysurfer Sonic FR 15 Meter Tip Fold Problem Solved

Postby a99 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:15 pm

Strange: if shrunk is on bcz mostly than how lenghtening a can solve the problems ? I mean in such case a also must be shorten to have quite possible equal profile balance. By the way as i know mostly shrinking c and z as their have less load usually. But any way flysurfer must release instruction for such cases because its not normal that after one year such expensive kite is disbalances regarding shrining and people must spend hours of speaking and experimenting on how to tune it !
I didnt found such instructions of fs site. Can someone link if their know such official instructon existing ?

foilholio
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2383
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:20 am
Kiting since: 1337
Local Beach: Ventura Beach
Favorite Beaches: Tarifa
Style: Airstyle
Gear: Foils
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Flysurfer Sonic FR 15 Meter Tip Fold Problem Solved

Postby foilholio » Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:50 am

2 reasons. It will change the profile to shorten BC, or lengthen Z and shorten B, or lengthen Z and lengthen C. Second it will limit depower, which if user doesn't know how to use the bar to make kite more stable may be helpful for them. The negative is it limits depower, so lost range (low and topend) and speed. It also changes the profile in a weird way, which shortens B more than C. But honestly that may be the profile change you need as it is usually the more stable type. I just don't approve of the depower limit change as it is unnecessary, because you can always limit depower with the bar.

If you want to have the same profile as lengthening A but with the same B limit. You would lengthen Z and C. If you want to increase B limit for more or original depower then you also lengthen B, but then also C and Z more to maintain the profile.

If you want help converting an A change to BCZ, just let me know.
davesails7 wrote: There is a post above about sonic fr 11m with the same issue where shortening b, c, and z solved it (same effect as lengthening A main).
I am just going to correct you on what was posted
HaylingBilly wrote: Now I have ended up at: a1(0), b1(80mm shorter), c1(60mm shorter), br1(150mm longer)
This says B shortened, C shortened, BUT Z Lengthened. This is not the same as lengthening A
a99 wrote: But any way flysurfer must release instruction for such cases because its not normal that after one year such expensive kite is disbalances regarding shrining and people must spend hours of speaking and experimenting on how to tune it !
They do give general advice which I don't completely agree with. Specific advice is too hard as production and use variables make things different.

The main problem is how they go about adjusting. If they just had a Z adjustment, it would be so much simpler to explain, understand and do.

User avatar
davesails7
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2081
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 7:36 pm
Kiting since: 2006
Local Beach: Virginia Beach
Style: Race
Gear: Delta Hydrofoil
Flysurfer Sonic2 9m,11m,18m
Sonic Race VMG 15m
OR Mako 130x35
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Flysurfer Sonic FR 15 Meter Tip Fold Problem Solved

Postby davesails7 » Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:09 pm

foilholio wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:50 am
I am just going to correct you on what was posted
Oh yeah, good point he did say he lengthened z, not shortened.

I also see your point that lengthening A only has the same effect when the bar is pulled in, then the change is different due to the depower ratios.

It did work to stop all tip tuck issues though! I do wish there were some go to IF/THEN statements on the flysurfer (or any foil manufacturer) website, especially when the original sonic FR had such a known tip collapse problem.

To be fair, the fpur Sonic 2's I had never had any major tip collapse issues and I've been extremely happy with them.

HaylingBilly
Rare Poster
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:43 pm
Kiting since: 2011
Local Beach: Hayling Island U.K.
Favorite Beaches: Gotta be Hayling Island...
Gear: Slingshot Lift Foil, Liquid Force 12m solo, Flysurfer Speed5 12m, Naish Trip 10m, Best TS 10m, Blade Trigger 7m.
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Flysurfer Sonic FR 15 Meter Tip Fold Problem Solved

Postby HaylingBilly » Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:22 am

Just to clarify guys. I didn’t lengthen z at all. Those are the measurements, compared to A being a Zero, at the underside of the kite at the center cell. I only adjusted the b and c lengths. I put up those measurements as the original poster was also zeroing out their kite to try and make it fly better. I felt they could try to replicate my kites profile and have a stable kite to work away from, rather than the unstable funny flying one they had before.
Sorry if I confused you.

foilholio
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2383
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:20 am
Kiting since: 1337
Local Beach: Ventura Beach
Favorite Beaches: Tarifa
Style: Airstyle
Gear: Foils
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Flysurfer Sonic FR 15 Meter Tip Fold Problem Solved

Postby foilholio » Fri Aug 31, 2018 10:18 am

Confusing. I must admit I didn't read the first part of your post with the info.

lightandfrost
Rare Poster
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:48 am
Kiting since: 0
Local Beach: e
Favorite Beaches: e
Style: onshore waveriding
Gear: v
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Flysurfer Sonic FR 15 Meter Tip Fold Problem Solved

Postby lightandfrost » Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:20 am

Reference the kite mentioned at the beginning of this post.
After clearing the vents from station 11-12 on the line plan to the drain tip a third time, the tip fold problem has not returned after four days of heavy use.
Previously the kite had this problem every day used for the last 4 months or from the time the user purchased the kite second hand.
The lines were not adjusted or altered.

foilholio
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2383
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:20 am
Kiting since: 1337
Local Beach: Ventura Beach
Favorite Beaches: Tarifa
Style: Airstyle
Gear: Foils
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Flysurfer Sonic FR 15 Meter Tip Fold Problem Solved

Postby foilholio » Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:04 pm

Clearing vents ? Station 11-12?


Return to “Foil Kites”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron