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Bridle complexity

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TomW
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Bridle complexity

Postby TomW » Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:37 pm

I don't really have a point here, but got sucked into the the Soul/Hyperlink or Soul/Chronos comparison.

Looked at the bridal plans:
Hyperlink 9/12: 31 points
Soul 10/12 : 39 points
Sonic 2 11: 48 points
Chronos 11/13: 52 points

I also can see that Hyperlink has shorter bridels than other 3. Longer bridal is more prone to tangle.
I have a Sonic 2 13m and the bridels are 3x longer.

So it appears that these kites are not really in same class....

kitexpert
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Re: Bridle complexity

Postby kitexpert » Sun Dec 02, 2018 4:33 pm

Cell count is one of the most important and defining parameters of a kite. It of course has a close relationship to AR: the higher AR the more cells is needed to keep cell shape good. Cell shape is especially important for high performance kites because it would be counter productive to make one without smooth shape and thus compromise original idea. High cell count also makes kite more expensive, because it has more parts and sewing work in it.

Bridle complexity (attachment points) follows cell count, but also how inner structure is designed. To have many levels in a bridle is not a bad thing, it makes total line length shorter and decreases line count. IMO more cascaded bridle is also cleaner.

It is true FS has had long bridles. I once redesigned a FS kite, I could shorten total bridle length about 50%. My design was not only shorter but more cascaded. Kite became faster and it was easier to loop.

Hyperlink bridle could also have less line, but perhaps then it would be "too complicated". :roll:

TomW
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Re: Bridle complexity

Postby TomW » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:29 pm

Makes sense. I'm not using the Sonic 2 13 that much. Had it out 8-10 times. Bought it used and it's nice to cruise on in light winds.
I'm curious how the complexity of it, and the flight characteristic compares to a Chronos 13m UL. Chronos seems less AR, but has more bridle points, but shorter bridels?
Never seen a Chronos live, let alone on the beach next to a Sonic 2...

I am Freeriding hydrofoil and really like the Hyperlinks. My wish ( unrealistic, yes) would be a Hyperlink simplicity with low end of Sonic2 / Chronos 3 UL 13m...

kitexpert
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Re: Bridle complexity

Postby kitexpert » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:18 am

TomW wrote: Chronos seems less AR, but has more bridle points, but shorter bridels?
They are quite comparable kites with their specs and performance AFAIK. But I only know Sonic2's, never ridden Chrono V3.

I checked bridle lengths from 11m Sonic2 and 11m Chrono V3 and it is really true that Chrono has shorter distance between mixer and the kite itself. Difference is over 20% (5m vs 6.3m).

If Hyperlink construction could give same performance as more expensive and complicated high AR kites no one would make latter. Mid AR kite is very usable compromise and there is now several foil kites in that genre available. From bridle perspective there is simple designs like Pulsion and more refined like new HQ Empulse. But it is clear FS Soul is by far technically most ambitious and advanced kite of them all.
Last edited by kitexpert on Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Kamikuza
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Re: Bridle complexity

Postby Kamikuza » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:20 am

Bridles don't tangle ;)

Mlkman
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Re: Bridle complexity

Postby Mlkman » Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:06 pm

Another aspect of bridle is if they are sheeted. It greatly lowers risk of tangle and knots in setup/packing. It also makes them more durable. Naturally there is a compromise: Added weight and bridle-drag (and line is more expensive).

Regis-de-giens
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Re: Bridle complexity

Postby Regis-de-giens » Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:52 pm

kitexpert wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:18 am
From bridle perspective there is simple designs like Pulsion and more refined like new HQ Empulse. But it is clear FS Soul is by far technically most ambitious and advanced kite of them all.
Not overall advanced , sorry. It depends for which application. Pulsion has more power during loop and better marginal wind abilities. I think it is also more stable and relaunches in less wind. I however agree that soul is (also) a very good kite.
Wave has unbeatable drift ability for surf.
Kitech FRs has a better loop.
Soul has a better hangtime.

So soul may have more articulated briddles but is not superior on every themes. I think we are in line but just wanted to kindly clarify.

TomW
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Re: Bridle complexity

Postby TomW » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:14 pm

Kamikuza wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:20 am
Bridles don't tangle ;)
On my beaches we have various types of dried seaweed and beach vegetation that loves to get stuck in the bridels while setting up, and then they get tangled. Have to go back and pull it out and straighten everything out. Shorter, less complicated bridels catch less of this debris.

Wish I had clean sand beach like in Brazil!

kitexpert
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Re: Bridle complexity

Postby kitexpert » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:17 pm

Regis-de-giens wrote:Pulsion has more power during loop
This is hard to believe because Soul is known as a powerful kite with the smoothest canopy, thick high lift profile and low drag bridle. Loop power depends essentially loop radius and how kiter does it, also kiter weight and strength have a big effect.

Kitech FRS has quite a lot canopy curve which makes loop less pivotal and more powerful. Cost is lowered projected area. More curve leads to smaller wingspan which of course means loop is completed faster.

I don't doubt your estimation of light wind capabilities of Pulsion. It is designed for that and for sure it is very good kite for that purpose. In light winds and low air speeds bridle drag is not so essential thing, but when speed increases it matters. If it didn't no one would design complex inner structures to get fewer parts and and less total line length in the bridle.

Not even today have I seen a line plan or even clear picture of Pulsion kite. Only thing I know bridle spacing is 1-1-1..., so bridle is on every rib.

Regis-de-giens
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Re: Bridle complexity

Postby Regis-de-giens » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:02 pm

I do not want to pollute the discussion on briddle designs too much. Soul has a powerful loop but Pulsion has a VERY powerful loop :remybussi: you need to test by yourself.

I know 2 owners of both soul and pulsion that just confirmed me again that they experienced a more powerful loop of Pulsion, a shorter radius turn and agility, more stab in turbulent wind and better drift. Soul however will get better hang time and support longer stay in the water before relaunch. More confidence overall thanks to this relaunch and solid construction, provided that wind is more consistent (say >7-8 knots).

In conclusion to me : more complicated bridle floors are not the necessary sign of a "Better" kite overall but can bring more compfort in unpacking phases for example or some seconds in a race.


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