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Bridle complexity

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Kamikuza
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Re: Bridle complexity

Postby Kamikuza » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:33 am

TomW wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:14 pm
Kamikuza wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:20 am
Bridles don't tangle ;)
On my beaches we have various types of dried seaweed and beach vegetation that loves to get stuck in the bridels while setting up, and then they get tangled. Have to go back and pull it out and straighten everything out. Shorter, less complicated bridels catch less of this debris.

Wish I had clean sand beach like in Brazil!
Same here. And little plants that grow in the sand, that grab bridles and have roots strong enough to hang on and mess up a launch.

Any bridles. Even the LEIs get snatched up. Even the knots on the pig tails :lol:

It's a non-issue :) shake 'em out, shut up and ride :D

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Re: Bridle complexity

Postby kitexpert » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:20 pm

Regis-de-giens wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:02 pm
I do not want to pollute the discussion on briddle designs too much. Soul has a powerful loop but Pulsion has a VERY powerful loop :remybussi: you need to test by yourself.

I know 2 owners of both soul and pulsion that just confirmed me again that they experienced a more powerful loop of Pulsion, a shorter radius turn and agility, more stab in turbulent wind and better drift. Soul however will get better hang time and support longer stay in the water before relaunch. More confidence overall thanks to this relaunch and solid construction, provided that wind is more consistent (say >7-8 knots).

In conclusion to me : more complicated bridle floors are not the necessary sign of a "Better" kite overall but can bring more compfort in unpacking phases for example or some seconds in a race.
Not polluting at all and if you Regis could show some clear picture of Pulsion or a line plan it would be even better. Your description on Pulsion sounds very good indeed, I like kites which produce power by active flying. Other things I appreciate are good upwind ability, good boosting, reassuring stability and handling in higher winds and quick steering reaction with the "right" bar pressure. The last ones are the main reason why in last years I've used LEI's mostly.

If kite has bridles on every rib it doesn't mean bridle is necessary simple, actually for even greater reason it shouldn't be. Kite structure becomes simple though because diagonal support inside canopy is not needed.

Nowadays foil kites have so much development behind that even not very great improvements are valuable. It is possible to decrease bridle line length (and drag) up to 70% (or in extreme cases more). Relatively it is a very big improvement. Drawback is kite becomes much more complex (and more expensive) by its canopy and also some added weight is unavoidable. However FS Soul is a light weight kite with a complex structure which is a remarkable achievement.

Regis-de-giens
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Re: Bridle complexity

Postby Regis-de-giens » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:14 pm

I also was loving LEI when using speed4 lotus ... but now I changed my mind with these agile mid-AR foil kites; you stall have less immediate depower than LEI, but turning radius is better than previous foilkites (even if not as good as LEIs but more linear).
I have no bridle plan ; I do not think than every cell has one bridle on the Pulsion ; there should be about 32 cells but about only 1/3 or 1/2 are bridled ; I will countercheck next time I use it.

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Re: Bridle complexity

Postby kitexpert » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:44 pm

Regis-de-giens wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:14 pm
I have no bridle plan ; I do not think than every cell has one bridle on the Pulsion ; there should be about 32 cells but about only 1/3 or 1/2 are bridled ; I will countercheck next time I use it.
Really? I have a memory of some hazy picture which showed it has a lot bridle line. It can't be 1/3 because it would need inner structures which I've thought aren't there (there was some picture in KF from inside of a Pulsion cell).

I don't get why there isn't a line plan of a foil kite available, it should be for maintenance and line repairs.

Regis-de-giens
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Re: Bridle complexity

Postby Regis-de-giens » Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:51 pm

I made this video years ago with a zoom on bridles at the end (3 : 05). It seems that most cells are briddle indeed. I'check in mored details in the next days to share with you.
phpBB [video]

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Re: Bridle complexity

Postby kitexpert » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:23 pm

Ok, @3:26 I can see bridles on every rib and three primary level lines cascaded together. It is quite simple design, but it could be even simpler("less designed").

But if it works well enough, no problem. However there is lot of bridle line and therefore quite a lot bridle line drag. It is possible having so much lines increases risks of tangling and makes it more difficult/laborous to untangle.

Benefits are bridle support is very good, single lines/attachment points don't have big strains, kite structure remains simple and kite is of light weight and also less expensive to manufacture.

By adding third bridle level to Pulsion bridle line length could be saved perhaps 20%. I don't know why it isn't done, it is a fifteen minute design work.

Regis-de-giens
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Re: Bridle complexity

Postby Regis-de-giens » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:48 pm

Imo if you add levels you loose some stiffness of the kite because at each kevel change, traction direction is not alined with the bridle. You loose some accuracy under load. Anyhow the Pulsion is the lighest kite already ...

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Re: Bridle complexity

Postby kitexpert » Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:37 am

Regis-de-giens wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:48 pm
Imo if you add levels you loose some stiffness of the kite because at each kevel change, traction direction is not alined with the bridle. You loose some accuracy under load. Anyhow the Pulsion is the lighest kite already ...
I doubt it. Three level bridle has been used for a long time in highest performance PG's and race kites. Using thicker lines in higher levels gives plenty of strength and stiffness ( and still much lower drag than many thinner lines). Bridle line angles are small and symmetrical if bridle is well designed, I don't see a problem there. Well designed bridle is also short, this lowers the drag and makes kite feel stiffer.

Pulsion could be even lighter with smaller drag. Straight long lines (like Pulsion second level) are most prone to shrink. When FS had some of those I always checked them first, in worst cases there was 10-15cm shrinkage.

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Re: Bridle complexity

Postby kitexpert » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:36 pm

I checked how bridle is in FS Soul. Bridle spacing is 1-3-1-3... which is usual choice today, and it is good. Bridle itself is quite normal three level one and like FS does it it is long (distance between canopy-mixer). I think it could be shorter but only tests would tell how short.

There is one feature however which makes Soul bridle kind of simpler: many different secondary/tertiary lines have same length. This makes easier to control shrinking/stretching by comparing lines with each other and also possible repair work can be easier. There is also some checking marks but I don't how useful they are.


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