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A kite without an experience

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Rob_85
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Re: A kite without an experience

Postby Rob_85 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:46 pm

If there are no kiteschools around, is booking yourself on a holiday and going to a kitecamp to learn an option?

Does seem crazy to be in a city with kiteable beaches and conditions, but no kiters.

Barryg101
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Re: A kite without an experience

Postby Barryg101 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:05 pm

Watch plenty of YouTube videos and check the safety and your lines to make sure everything is in good condition and not frayed. It can be very dangerous without real lessons from an instructor but if you don’t have the resources to learn then I’d give it a go and take it reeeal slow and go in light wind

Good luck and be safe

keyhaha
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Re: A kite without an experience

Postby keyhaha » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:18 am

jakemoore wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:09 pm
I wonder why there are no other kiters around? Kiters accumulate in areas that have passable conditions for wind and water. There definitely should be kiters around if conditions are good. Just a food for thought.
There are no kiters around because as you all know kiteboarding is an expensive sport. And the passable wind here is seasonal which usually starts on may. Some of my friends don't even know what kiteboarding is. Some even thought my kite is for paragliding. :argue:
Rob_85 wrote: If there are no kiteschools around, is booking yourself on a holiday and going to a kitecamp to learn an option?

Does seem crazy to be in a city with kiteable beaches and conditions, but no kiters.
I tried this once but after staying in that resort for 3 days the instructor is unavailable for some reason. And that is the only kiteschool in that place. And if I go to a different kite school my daily expenses will be more expensive than the actual kite lesson.

RedSky
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Re: A kite without an experience

Postby RedSky » Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:33 am

Buy that power kite even though its on handles. You'll learn the wind window and build muscle memory. Be very careful though. As mentioned, be mindful of your downwind, especially other people. Give everyone a wide berth.
Setting up and launch/landing an LEI has its own special procedure. Without that knowledge you are in grave danger.

keyhaha
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Re: A kite without an experience

Postby keyhaha » Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:27 am

RedSky wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:33 am
Buy that power kite even though its on handles.
Can i put a stick or something else to make it like a real trainer kite use for kiteboarding? Or would it fly differently if I tweak the controls.

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LiquidXtasy
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Re: A kite without an experience

Postby LiquidXtasy » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:05 pm

Trainer kites are only good to learn about the wind window, nothing else. You can't control the power with a trainer kite because they aren't made that way, they only have 2 lines. So even with a bar you wouldn't be able to control the power because it's on 2 lines.

IMO instead of buying a trainer kite which is going to be a 3M kite on 2 lines. Just buy a very small 4M kite with 4 lines, and make sure it can go with the bar you have. Or just buy a used 4M kite with bar included. This way you have a small 4 line kite to practice on that isn't going to put you in any real danger in lighter wind, and when you get better at kiting you can take it out in stronger wind later down the line.

Here, found a video with a 4 line trainer kite,

phpBB [video]


You see how she is letting the bar out and pulling it back in? That's what you want to be doing to learn, and that's something a 2 line trainer kite will never teach you.

keyhaha
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Re: A kite without an experience

Postby keyhaha » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:10 pm

Thank you for all your suggestions, advices and tips. I never thought I'd get such response from pro riders. I'll update you guys on my progress and I promise to take in if not all then some of your advice especially the safety tips.

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Re: A kite without an experience

Postby Matteo V » Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:19 pm

LiquidXtasy wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:05 pm
Trainer kites are only good to learn about the wind window, nothing else. You can't control the power with a trainer kite because they aren't made that way,.....
So....your profile says you have been "Kiting since: 0". That could be a few different dates. I would think that means back in the early days of kite buggies, or maybe the late 90's. If so, you likely did not have access to a depower kite at first. Thus you probably have an extremely highly skilled background with non-depower kites. And that is what baffles me about your statement. LiquidXtasy, please correct me on your background if I am off in my assumptions.

I started, along with my closest friend, on non-depower traction kites on the snow. And it worked, though not as well as the more modern/expensive offerings at the time. The whole world of power kiting did just fine back before depower kites were even widely available. And the challenges those kites presented, produced some extremely skilled riders that are still kiting today and will attest to their skill development via overcoming the shortcomings of those kites.

Just as a disclaimer - I recommend no beginner bother with a non-depower over 2.5m. But trainers trainers of 2.5m or less are extremely useful for many things. Some of the usefulness of a non-depower kite continues beyond advanced levels of kiteboarding. Let me know what you think is inaccurate in the following list of things I believe you NEED a small open cell foil kite non-depower trainer for.

Small foil non-depower trainers:
1. cost much less than depower trainers. This saves money on the first kite purchase.
2. are extremely durable, being open cell foil kites, and save wear and tear on more expensive tube kites.
3. can be used with less friendly ground conditions, with less worry about puncturing the bladder and having an expensive repair. They are also easy to repair with some sail tape and stitching.
4. being non-depower, the safety system allows "loss of consciousness fail safe", or will not continue to drag you once you lose consciousness since you will let go of the bar at that point (don't use harness lines on trainers).
5. are the best way to introduce others with only a casual interest, or family members to what you are doing on the water without having to take them out on the water or risk an expensive inflatable trainer.
6. allow a new kiter to learn, without confusion, how the wind window works with relation to location vs power vs speed through the window.
7. allow a kiter of any skill level to "test out" wind conditions on the beach at a location they have never been to before.
8. are the best way to experience "kiteskateboarding" with out the obvious problems associated with flying an inflatable over concrete (at 100kg, I still use only a 2.5m, though I do own a 3.5m trainer).
9. can be used to work on the principles of unhooking - even determining if the risk to the shoulder condition of the kiter would be too great, without putting their shoulder in severe danger.
10. are convenient for setup and take down, allowing for a quick "over lunch break" session - thus providing more time flying and more sessions (important for learning that you do a little each day, then sleep on it).


The main reason you do not want an inflatable depower trainer is that you do not want to be connected to a kite that you do not have the skill to steer, and that you must maintain consciousness to activate it's safety.

LiquidXtasy wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:05 pm
You see how she is letting the bar out and pulling it back in? That's what you want to be doing to learn, and that's something a 2 line trainer kite will never teach you.
My advice is that, unless you are under the direct supervision of a kite instructor, you do not want to be worrying about sheeting until you have had many sessions on a non-depower trainer. Only under the close supervision of an experienced kite instructor, should you ever be trying to figure out how steering, wind-window, kite speed, AND sheeting angle relative to placement in the wind-window, work as one. Non-depower trainer kites work as trainers because they allow you to figure out, and train, on the first three of those things without having that "4th dimension" of sheeting change them.


This is going to sound complicated and you may never understand this on even a basic level unless you see some one purposefully "stalling out" their kite to gain MORE performance from it. In order to fully understand it, you would have to get some non-depower kite experience and bring that back to your depower kiting.

Sheeting on a depower kite (or any sail or wing) has 3 modes:
1. Sheeting out - means dumping power by creating less angle of attack to the wind - push the bar away
2. Sheeting in to ideal angle of attack for maximum power development - means sheeting the kite to one trim or bar throw location (for a given place in the window/speed) - pull in the bar to the point of most power, but not past
3. Over sheeting or stalling the kite to dump power and/or keep the kite in the back of the window or have it reverse to a deeper position in the window - means pulling in the bar too much so that the kite stalls (stopping or moving backwards) in a effort to trade power for

All of the 3 points above can be done WITH A NON-DEPOWER KITE! But you cannot use the bar throw to do them. Here is my best explanation of how. But these take an extremely high level of traction kite (non-depower) skill.

One of the ways most of us remember to de-power an old C-kite with very little depower capabilities in a gust, was to edge hard into the wind. Thus you can accomplish step 1. on a non-depower kite, actually depowering it without any bar throw - by simply changing your course or direction of travel. Most kiters even use an additional way to depower the kite without even knowing it - fly the kite to the edge of the window or up higher - thus effectively depowering the kite even if you have run out of depower bar throw.

Want to sheet in to an ideal angle on a non-depower kite? First, sine the kite to build speed slightly off the wind, then edge closer to a beam reach, but hold back until you get going at top speed on that angle, then carry that speed as you point up a bit higher. You will lose some speed, but you will be at ideal tack angle for that apparent wind angle.

Want to stall a somewhat overpowered non-depower kite - I don't think I can even come up with all the ways that are available to you for this. But one would be to edge hard up wind, then fall off suddenly, reducing apparent wind by slightly over running the kite or negating some of the wind speed by your direction/speed relative to the wind direction. Or run at the kite without suddenly edging upwind creating the same effect as the previous example, but with the kite deeper in the window.


So why did I take so much time to lay out how you can do all 3 of these things with non-depower vs depower kites? Because you can use all of these techniques with a depower kite, including doing both at the same time! Most kiters only utilize the bar throw to depower modern kites. And modern SLE's are designed for that. But you can have much more performance with your depower kites if you utilize the "dummy" barthrow, that anyone can use, AND the more complex ways of sheeting/stalling that you will likely only develop via traction (non-depower) kite use. Though the trainer will not get you to the higher levels of this, it will give you an introduction to these more complex expressions kite power manipulation.

I do not want to say that only using your bar throw to control your kite is wrong, but there are many techniques that allow you to amplify the controls avaialble to you.


To the OP,

The latter part of this advice will sound like a foreign language to you. That is not important, at least for now. Please disregardful it and just fly your trainer, do what ever you can do to get lessons and more info, and fly all the time. But most importantly, focus on safety.

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jakemoore
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Re: A kite without an experience

Postby jakemoore » Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:37 pm

Seems to me a 3-4 m. 2-line trainer can be fun for a beginner especially if wind is lighter.

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LiquidXtasy
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Re: A kite without an experience

Postby LiquidXtasy » Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:20 pm

Matteo V wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:19 pm
LiquidXtasy wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:05 pm
Trainer kites are only good to learn about the wind window, nothing else. You can't control the power with a trainer kite because they aren't made that way,.....
So....your profile says you have been "Kiting since: 0". That could be a few different dates. I would think that means back in the early days of kite buggies, or maybe the late 90's. If so, you likely did not have access to a depower kite at first. Thus you probably have an extremely highly skilled background with non-depower kites. And that is what baffles me about your statement. LiquidXtasy, please correct me on your background if I am off in my assumptions.

I started, along with my closest friend, on non-depower traction kites on the snow. And it worked, though not as well as the more modern/expensive offerings at the time. The whole world of power kiting did just fine back before depower kites were even widely available. And the challenges those kites presented, produced some extremely skilled riders that are still kiting today and will attest to their skill development via overcoming the shortcomings of those kites.

Just as a disclaimer - I recommend no beginner bother with a non-depower over 2.5m. But trainers trainers of 2.5m or less are extremely useful for many things. Some of the usefulness of a non-depower kite continues beyond advanced levels of kiteboarding. Let me know what you think is inaccurate in the following list of things I believe you NEED a small open cell foil kite non-depower trainer for.

Small foil non-depower trainers:
1. cost much less than depower trainers. This saves money on the first kite purchase.
2. are extremely durable, being open cell foil kites, and save wear and tear on more expensive tube kites.
3. can be used with less friendly ground conditions, with less worry about puncturing the bladder and having an expensive repair. They are also easy to repair with some sail tape and stitching.
4. being non-depower, the safety system allows "loss of consciousness fail safe", or will not continue to drag you once you lose consciousness since you will let go of the bar at that point (don't use harness lines on trainers).
5. are the best way to introduce others with only a casual interest, or family members to what you are doing on the water without having to take them out on the water or risk an expensive inflatable trainer.
6. allow a new kiter to learn, without confusion, how the wind window works with relation to location vs power vs speed through the window.
7. allow a kiter of any skill level to "test out" wind conditions on the beach at a location they have never been to before.
8. are the best way to experience "kiteskateboarding" with out the obvious problems associated with flying an inflatable over concrete (at 100kg, I still use only a 2.5m, though I do own a 3.5m trainer).
9. can be used to work on the principles of unhooking - even determining if the risk to the shoulder condition of the kiter would be too great, without putting their shoulder in severe danger.
10. are convenient for setup and take down, allowing for a quick "over lunch break" session - thus providing more time flying and more sessions (important for learning that you do a little each day, then sleep on it).


The main reason you do not want an inflatable depower trainer is that you do not want to be connected to a kite that you do not have the skill to steer, and that you must maintain consciousness to activate it's safety.

LiquidXtasy wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:05 pm
You see how she is letting the bar out and pulling it back in? That's what you want to be doing to learn, and that's something a 2 line trainer kite will never teach you.
My advice is that, unless you are under the direct supervision of a kite instructor, you do not want to be worrying about sheeting until you have had many sessions on a non-depower trainer. Only under the close supervision of an experienced kite instructor, should you ever be trying to figure out how steering, wind-window, kite speed, AND sheeting angle relative to placement in the wind-window, work as one. Non-depower trainer kites work as trainers because they allow you to figure out, and train, on the first three of those things without having that "4th dimension" of sheeting change them.


This is going to sound complicated and you may never understand this on even a basic level unless you see some one purposefully "stalling out" their kite to gain MORE performance from it. In order to fully understand it, you would have to get some non-depower kite experience and bring that back to your depower kiting.

Sheeting on a depower kite (or any sail or wing) has 3 modes:
1. Sheeting out - means dumping power by creating less angle of attack to the wind - push the bar away
2. Sheeting in to ideal angle of attack for maximum power development - means sheeting the kite to one trim or bar throw location (for a given place in the window/speed) - pull in the bar to the point of most power, but not past
3. Over sheeting or stalling the kite to dump power and/or keep the kite in the back of the window or have it reverse to a deeper position in the window - means pulling in the bar too much so that the kite stalls (stopping or moving backwards) in a effort to trade power for

All of the 3 points above can be done WITH A NON-DEPOWER KITE! But you cannot use the bar throw to do them. Here is my best explanation of how. But these take an extremely high level of traction kite (non-depower) skill.

One of the ways most of us remember to de-power an old C-kite with very little depower capabilities in a gust, was to edge hard into the wind. Thus you can accomplish step 1. on a non-depower kite, actually depowering it without any bar throw - by simply changing your course or direction of travel. Most kiters even use an additional way to depower the kite without even knowing it - fly the kite to the edge of the window or up higher - thus effectively depowering the kite even if you have run out of depower bar throw.

Want to sheet in to an ideal angle on a non-depower kite? First, sine the kite to build speed slightly off the wind, then edge closer to a beam reach, but hold back until you get going at top speed on that angle, then carry that speed as you point up a bit higher. You will lose some speed, but you will be at ideal tack angle for that apparent wind angle.

Want to stall a somewhat overpowered non-depower kite - I don't think I can even come up with all the ways that are available to you for this. But one would be to edge hard up wind, then fall off suddenly, reducing apparent wind by slightly over running the kite or negating some of the wind speed by your direction/speed relative to the wind direction. Or run at the kite without suddenly edging upwind creating the same effect as the previous example, but with the kite deeper in the window.


So why did I take so much time to lay out how you can do all 3 of these things with non-depower vs depower kites? Because you can use all of these techniques with a depower kite, including doing both at the same time! Most kiters only utilize the bar throw to depower modern kites. And modern SLE's are designed for that. But you can have much more performance with your depower kites if you utilize the "dummy" barthrow, that anyone can use, AND the more complex ways of sheeting/stalling that you will likely only develop via traction (non-depower) kite use. Though the trainer will not get you to the higher levels of this, it will give you an introduction to these more complex expressions kite power manipulation.

I do not want to say that only using your bar throw to control your kite is wrong, but there are many techniques that allow you to amplify the controls avaialble to you.


To the OP,

The latter part of this advice will sound like a foreign language to you. That is not important, at least for now. Please disregardful it and just fly your trainer, do what ever you can do to get lessons and more info, and fly all the time. But most importantly, focus on safety.
This is where you and I don't see eye to eye.

With no instructors to teach the OP about water relaunch or controling the kites power, how do you think he is going to learn on a 2 line trainer kite that you so highly reccomend? He would learn a lot more on a 4 line 4M small kite in light wind, than he would on your 2 line trainer foil. Not to mention he would have a smaller kite for later on in his life if he ever wants to kite in stronger winds. My way would teach a lot more, and be economical in the long run. All those fancy explanations you say to depower the trainer kite and power it back up will do nothing but confuse the OP while teaching him absolutely nothing about sheeting in and out.

A 4M 4 line kite that you have to pump up would teach a lot more, than something like your 2 line trainer that you can't even practice ejecting when things get out of control.

Everything I have explained is the way to success, not flying a trainer kite for 2 hours hoping to get better before taking the plunge on a huge kite that could get you into trouble.


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