Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

A kite without an experience

forum for kitesurfers


Matteo V
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 556
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:42 pm
Kiting since: 2008
Local Beach: US, Iowa/Nebraska/Kansas/Utah/Oregon Coast
Favorite Beaches: Ft. Stevens, North coast of Oregon
Style: Just like school in summertime
Gear: Delta Kites and LF Kitefish QuadMod
Snowboard (Cambered and Rockered)
Foil kites on the snow
Brand Affiliation: NONE F--- the corporate world

Re: A kite without an experience

Postby Matteo V » Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:25 pm

LiquidXtasy wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:20 pm
Everything I have explained is the way to success, not flying a trainer kite for 2 hours hoping to get better before taking the plunge on a huge kite that could get you into trouble.
There is no argument against - when you are learning to fly a kite for the first time, a trainer not being hooked to you is MUCH SAFER than being connected to a kite as you suggest the OP do before they have even flown a kite. And 2 hours on a trainer without lessons is no where near enough. I would recommend at least 10-12hours and at least 6 sessions ending only when you can tie a shoe with one hand while flying the trainer above you. You have to realize that the OP is brand new to a kite AND the wind. Can you tell him what too much wind feels like at his location??? Or would you recommend he buy a wind meter. And read up on "rotor". And read up on frontal gusts. And read up on cloud burst induced down/updrafts.

LiquidXtasy wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:20 pm
He would learn a lot more on a 4 line 4M small kite in light wind, than he would on your 2 line trainer foil.
You are correct. But OP would have a huge initial investment with a 4m depower kite and bar. And the OP would likely not use that 4m for years on the water. I started off with 13.5 and a 11.5m years ago, even though I had lots of experience in high winds on depower snowkite foils at 3.0m (no fun though). I went down to 9.5m the second year, then 7.5 the third, then 5.5m a few years later. I only just went out with some confidence on a 3.5m depower (on water) last fall. It is pretty rare that any kiter lives in a location where you would even use a 4m at a high level of skill.

Instructors, some great ones I know, do teach right out of the gate with a depower kite. But they are there to explain what is happening and what the student is doing wrong. That is crucial, as the OP won't even understand backstall or line trim at the beginning. If anyone goes at it alone, I recommend they avoid moving right onto a depower at almost any cost. This keeps them many orders of magnitude safer with a trainer while trying to just figure out the basics of kite control and pull.

LiquidXtasy wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:20 pm
He would learn a lot more on a 4 line 4M small kite in light wind, than he would on your 2 line trainer foil.
Maybe you have never taught someone to kite on a trainer, but the hardest thing to get through to students is to "let go of the bar". And that is extremely valuable practice that a trainer instills in a student. Trainers are the best tool to eliminate the powerful instinct that students have to "hold onto the bar for dear life", even when they are being dragged into a dangerous area or object. Again, no question that activating a safety is important. But you MUST let go of the bar first (which actually activates the safety on a trainer). Trainers teach this counter intuitive action better, and with little (damage to kite or person) consequence as opposed to the consequences a larger inflatable will have.


Bottom line is that trainers are safer, significantly less expensive, and more useful for at least 2-6 more years for the OP than your suggestion.

RedSky
Medium Poster
Posts: 152
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:47 am
Kiting since: 1997
Local Beach: Camber, +Croydon
Gear: Genetrix Hydra

Re: A kite without an experience

Postby RedSky » Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:27 am

keyhaha wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:27 am
RedSky wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:33 am
Buy that power kite even though its on handles.
Can i put a stick or something else to make it like a real trainer kite use for kiteboarding? Or would it fly differently if I tweak the controls.
Some sound advice from both guys above but I think there is some confusion. Both are coming from completely different disciplines, each with their own perspectives on how to best start out.

Instead I recommend you hang out at your local beach and ask someone to show you how.

User avatar
LiquidXtasy
Frequent Poster
Posts: 299
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 7:03 am
Kiting since: 0
Local Beach: The beach that's closest to my house.
Favorite Beaches: The ones with sand and water.
Style: 2 Feet on the board, 2 hands on the bar
Gear: I'm not driving right now, but when I drive I always start out in 1st.
Brand Affiliation: Your mom
Location: Florida

Re: A kite without an experience

Postby LiquidXtasy » Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:05 am

Matteo V wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:25 pm
Bottom line is that trainers are safer, significantly less expensive, and more useful for at least 2-6 more years for the OP than your suggestion.
Until he decides to take out his 10M when he has had enough of the toy training kite with no bar sheeting experience what so ever.

And when you learn on a real kite, you know you can always practice ejecting, which should be the first thing you learn anyway. Something a 2 line trainer kite will never teach you.

Let that sink in for a minute before you blab your mouth at me again.

User avatar
foam-n-fibre
Frequent Poster
Posts: 421
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2007 11:50 pm
Kiting since: 2000
Gear: DIY boards and OR kites
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Re: A kite without an experience

Postby foam-n-fibre » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:16 am

I self taught myself back in 2000. My 2 cents is that a small 2 line trainer, around 1 to 2 metres is good for learning the way to fly a kite and how it pulls hard through the power zone etc. There are pretty cheap ones available. I once got one for my kids from China and it flew like crap, so check the online reviews.

As for a 4m 4-line kite, do they make cheap foils like that? If so that could be an option. If it means buying a high wind 4m LEI kite that experienced riders might fly on storm days, then that sounds like a much more expensive option. It could be an OK option, but would cost quite a bit more.

If you fly the small trainer, you will get a feel for judging the wind and better judge the strength. After that you have to be careful and know your limits with the big kite. The worst thing a learner can do are fly too close to people and hard obstacles, and not understand when too much wind is too much wind. There are a million youtube videos about how to learn, and there were none when some of us started. Watch ALL the videos! :)

Peter

Matteo V
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 556
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:42 pm
Kiting since: 2008
Local Beach: US, Iowa/Nebraska/Kansas/Utah/Oregon Coast
Favorite Beaches: Ft. Stevens, North coast of Oregon
Style: Just like school in summertime
Gear: Delta Kites and LF Kitefish QuadMod
Snowboard (Cambered and Rockered)
Foil kites on the snow
Brand Affiliation: NONE F--- the corporate world

Re: A kite without an experience

Postby Matteo V » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:47 am

LiquidXtasy wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:05 am
And when you learn on a real kite, you know you can always practice ejecting, which should be the first thing you learn anyway. Something a 2 line trainer kite will never teach you.
A 4m depower kite hooked to someone who cannot yet steer the kite is an accident waiting to happen. A 2 or 3 line trainer (non-depower) teaches you practice ejecting the kite by letting go of the bar - that is the first safety on even a depower kite.

To the OP if you go with LiquidXtasy's advice and try a 4m depower first - hook the lines to a solid object, and practice letting go of the bar then QR releases (primary QR and secondary leash) with your eyes closed or laying upside down on the ground to simulate being dragged suddenly. Do this many times before you ever hook up the lines to the kite. Or just fly a trainer and avoid the hospital.

But no matter what you do, be safe and avoid others where you are learning. Don't get kiting banned somewhere before anyone ever gets to do it there.

Matteo V
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 556
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:42 pm
Kiting since: 2008
Local Beach: US, Iowa/Nebraska/Kansas/Utah/Oregon Coast
Favorite Beaches: Ft. Stevens, North coast of Oregon
Style: Just like school in summertime
Gear: Delta Kites and LF Kitefish QuadMod
Snowboard (Cambered and Rockered)
Foil kites on the snow
Brand Affiliation: NONE F--- the corporate world

Re: A kite without an experience

Postby Matteo V » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:58 am

foam-n-fibre wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:16 am
As for a 4m 4-line kite, do they make cheap foils like that? If so that could be an option.
The HQ Apex series that used to be offered in 3m, and now in 3.5m, is one of the best kites for training. I use my 3m to help snow and water kiters out with sheeting/stall concepts. Some advanced kiters that can pull off tricks that I cannot name have had their eyes opened up by my little 3m Apex III. This is because kite is very punishing if you apply the wrong sheeting - just like some of the more advanced foils. That said, this kite is not a pleasure to ride even in steady wind because it is so sensitive, thus not worth buying new. A more comfortable (but you won't learn much from) kite in the 3-4m range is an Ozone "Access" or pretty much any LEI of that size would be better as a storm kite.

If you can get a small Apex cheap, it will up your game and at least give you a good portion of the part of kite sheeting that you are missing if you have only flown modern LEI's. But to gain the most advanced experience, you need to learn how to power/depower a traction kite (non depower like the HQ Beamer or Scout) while riding with it. That can be extremely afordable (getting one of those used) but time consuming and scary for even me to go back to that frustration.

At my last snowkite meet, I had a newbie using my old 4m HQ Scout (non-depower)that I had given away to his friend. He moved a few meters and was almost making it work. I saw this and immediately gave him my 6m Access (depower), and he was riding upwind immediately. Just being able to use an old non-depower traction kite to move is skill enough to get upwind with a depower kite.

keyhaha
Rare Poster
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:19 pm
Kiting since: 0
Favorite Beaches: White chocolate hills zamboanguita
Style: Freeride
Gear: Best kahoona v7
Liquid force response control bar 2015
Manera harness
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: A kite without an experience

Postby keyhaha » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:13 am

Actually I do know what you're saying because of my experience in flying a plane. The terminologies are quite the same. Problem is how do I relate it to a wings of a plane to a kite.

I appreciate your advice in buying a trainer kite instead of buying a really small depower kite. Both have their own advantage and disadvantages and it's up for me to decide on my own. I'll maybe save up alot of money to buy both so that someday I can open up a new kite spot here in our place and make kiteboarding easier for those guys here that wants to try the sport.

User avatar
LiquidXtasy
Frequent Poster
Posts: 299
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 7:03 am
Kiting since: 0
Local Beach: The beach that's closest to my house.
Favorite Beaches: The ones with sand and water.
Style: 2 Feet on the board, 2 hands on the bar
Gear: I'm not driving right now, but when I drive I always start out in 1st.
Brand Affiliation: Your mom
Location: Florida

Re: A kite without an experience

Postby LiquidXtasy » Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:24 pm

Matteo V wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:47 am
A 4m depower kite hooked to someone who cannot yet steer the kite is an accident waiting to happen.
Why would you learn to steer the kite first before learning to release the kite?
Matteo V wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:47 am
A 2 or 3 line trainer (non-depower) teaches you practice ejecting the kite by letting go of the bar - that is the first safety on even a depower kite.
Letting go of the kite in real life isn't the same as ejecting the kite. I hope you were joking when you said that.

I can see how you are misguided into thinking the traditional way is the right way to go. Every kiteschool teaches the same steps. 1. Fly trainer kite 2. Get out in shallow water with real kite. 3. Learn to stand up. And this is an excellent way to learn with an instructor.

But for someone who is going to be teaching themselves with no one to guide them, my way is definitely better.

To go from a 2 meter trainer kite with no sheeting experience to a full 10M kite would be suicidal. And that's the way your method is.
Telling a complete noob that a trainer kite is "the best way to learn" before stepping up to a huge 10M kite with no instructor is rediculous. And if he decides to go your route and does bodily harm to himself or whoever is around him it's going to be your fault.

Let that sink in for a minute
Last edited by LiquidXtasy on Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Matteo V
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 556
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:42 pm
Kiting since: 2008
Local Beach: US, Iowa/Nebraska/Kansas/Utah/Oregon Coast
Favorite Beaches: Ft. Stevens, North coast of Oregon
Style: Just like school in summertime
Gear: Delta Kites and LF Kitefish QuadMod
Snowboard (Cambered and Rockered)
Foil kites on the snow
Brand Affiliation: NONE F--- the corporate world

Re: A kite without an experience

Postby Matteo V » Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:45 pm

keyhaha wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:13 am
Actually I do know what you're saying because of my experience in flying a plane. The terminologies are quite the same. Problem is how do I relate it to a wings of a plane to a kite.
The only way to statically relate a kite to an airplane wing is with regards to angle of attack (AOA) and stall (detached/turbulant airflow during stall vs attached airflow). But the addition of the wind-window changes too much to dynamically relate the kite (and these concepts) to a plane in a simple and applicable manner.

And this next statement is the only helpful advice you will get at your stage - 'Very little of the academics of kite operation matter to a new kiter - focus on safety and just fly the kite to build instinctual control to get you beyond thinking about/looking at the kite.'


So, now for an overview of the academics that do not matter to you - yet:

One thing that is nearly impossible to relate is how a kite can move forward in the wind-window without a motor like an airplane or momentum like a glider. With a depower kite, sheeting principles (adjusting AOA) can be used to show how a kite can go from on the ground downwind of the kiter, up through the wind-window, to 12 o'clock. But that explanation kind of gets fuzzy when you are talking about non-depower kites like trainers that still fly forward in the window. Still, the principle is the same in both depower and non-depower.

The main problem with applying aeronautical knowledge to a kite operation is that a airplane does not really fit conceptually on the wind-window. Planes can fly anywhere, but a kite is stuck on the surface of the wind window and cannot leave it while under operation (save overfly). Add to this that the wind window "shifts" to account for apparent wind generated by movement of the kiter, and things get really confusing if you try to think them through.

And when do you actually try to stall an airplane??? Pretty much never, right??? But stall in kiting is an advanced skill that helps in placement of the kite in the window for a planned power delay/delivery, and this is a good thing. Though for novice through intermediate kiters, stall is to be avoided and more focus is on the recovery from an unplanned stall to deliver power to the kiter as soon as possible so that the kiter can keep going.

There is lots more to it, and I certainly would not have a complete explanation no matter how long I could go on for. So, again, build instinctual feel. A trainer kite is made to be easy enough for you to just go out and fly without worrying about any of these concepts. It also does not punish you for your mistakes, but lets you know you made them.

Matteo V
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 556
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:42 pm
Kiting since: 2008
Local Beach: US, Iowa/Nebraska/Kansas/Utah/Oregon Coast
Favorite Beaches: Ft. Stevens, North coast of Oregon
Style: Just like school in summertime
Gear: Delta Kites and LF Kitefish QuadMod
Snowboard (Cambered and Rockered)
Foil kites on the snow
Brand Affiliation: NONE F--- the corporate world

Re: A kite without an experience

Postby Matteo V » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:16 pm

LiquidXtasy wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:24 pm
Why would you learn to steer the kite first before learning to release the kite?
Only on a small trainer can you safely do this. And this is part of the inherent safety of a trainer kite. If the OP does the human thing and hold on for dear life while getting dragged, the OP will kill the kite immediately upon release when the OP chooses to let go or gets knocked unconscious. A depower kite connected to you requires you to maintain consciousness AND let go of the bar to activate the release. Given that I am not in a position to be out with the OP's first flight, and there is a high likelihood that the OP will try to steer the kite before activating the release. Again, only with a trainer is this condition relatively safe.

LiquidXtasy wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:24 pm
Letting go of the kite in real life isn't the same as ejecting the kite. I hope you were joking when you said that.
It is with a trainer. And it is the first step, AND THE MOST IMPORTANT STEP, so that the kiter can activate the release on a depower kite connected to the kiter. Can you activate your release with your hands in a death grip on the bar??? None of the beginners I have taught can do that. And no one can activate a depower CL release when unconscious.

LiquidXtasy wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:24 pm
I can see how you are misguided into thinking the traditional way is the right way to go. Every kiteschool teaches the same steps. 1. Fly trainer kite 2. Get out in shallow water with real kite. 3. Learn to stand up. And this is an excellent way to learn with an instructor.

But for someone who is going to be teaching themselves with no one to guide them, my way is definitely better than yours.
Your way is demonstrably more dangerous for sure. And you are wrong that every kite school teaches the same steps. The best instructors skip the trainer kite as you suggest. But this is only because they are there, in person, with the student when they first fly. That kite instructor is the students main safety device that allows them to use a depower kite without understanding a trainer.

The instructor makes sure that the student:
1. is familiar with the QR and Leash safety system and has practiced it.
2. is aware of what will happen to the kite when the the primary and secondary release is activated.
3. is not flying too large of a kite (wind speed) for the students first time flying a kite
4. is aware of their surroundings and the instructor is the eyes of the student for the training ground area while the student is only able to focus on the kite
5. gets instruction on how to counter the normal intuition to pull the bar in and NOT PULL THE BAR IN when the kite suddenly yanks the student in a gust

The instructor is what allows skipping the trainer.

LiquidXtasy wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:24 pm
To go from a 2 meter trainer kite with no sheeting experience to a full 10M kite would be suicidal. And that's the way your method is.
Telling a complete noob that a trainer kite is "the best way to learn" before stepping up to a huge 10M kite with no instructor is rediculous. And if he decides to go your route and does bodily harm to himself or whoever is around him it's going to be your fault.
So going from a 4m to a 10.5m is different??? The overwhelming advice here is to seek instruction. Then to use a small trainer to understand how a kite works. Then try to find a kiter in the area. If none of those things are possible for the OP, then the OP is taking their life into their own hands. A simple Youtube search will tell you what can happen in the case of mixing inexperience with a depower kite.

My advice is for the OP to get a trainer and NOT FLY the 10.5 until the OP receives proper instruction or at least some help from a local kiter. That is the only safe advice. Others have taken the dangerous route of just going for it on their own. Most have succeeded, some have wound up in the hospital or dead. The OP can decide to use your advice and wind up at one of these outcomes regardless.

But good try in your attempt of trying to change the argument and make it emotional. It didn't work.

I'm here to help the OP, not hurt them.


Return to “Kitesurfing”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 6 guests