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Learning with Zeeko Carver vs Green

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Zandman
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Learning with Zeeko Carver vs Green

Postby Zandman » Thu May 24, 2018 10:36 am

I’m about to make my first step into Hydrofoiling and pretty excited.
Already an ok TT kiteboarder ( nothing impressive though just jumps, pops, carving turns etc) with 0 surfboard experience.

Just got a very good deal on a used Zeeko Hydrofoil set.
no volume board, 90cm alu mast, Zeeko green wing and Zeeko Carver wing.

Shall I start learning with the Carver wing or the Green wing?
The guy that sold it to me suggested that the Green is probably a bit better, especially the first days.
He said that carver is less “forgiving” and that it has more lift that you have to counter.

Carvers advantage is that it flys in lower speed that feels safer but still overall recommended (mildly) green for beginning.
He was a bit stronger in the recommendation to stick through the learning process to one wing because changing them messes up the muscle memory and sets you back.

In case somebody has tried both, what do you think?

Green or Carver?

Is mixing through the learning really that bad?

Thanks for your help!

dylan*
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Re: Learning with Zeeko Carver vs Green

Postby dylan* » Thu May 24, 2018 1:55 pm

My gut reaction is that the wing with more lift is easier because you can go slower, but after considering it a bit I think he might be right.

Speed is the key to virtually everything in kiting, and if you're trying to go slow it means you'll really have to have perfect balance and control, and the probability of jackknifing and racking on the board/wing is higher (I've done it a bunch riding slow when learning strapless foiling...). Especially with a no-volume board that won't float if you're going too slow and you touch down.

Counteracting the lift can be a challenge when you're learning how to balance because it constantly feels like the foil wants to blast off into space as soon as you get moving. The wings with less lift are a little more gradual, so even though you need a little more board speed to stay foiling, it's more gradual and intuitive.

I'd agree with not switching as well, I had a hard time even going back to riding a surfboard after a bunch of sessions on the foil, haha, it felt so shaky and unstable in comparison the first time I stepped back on my regular board. Eventually you'll be able to ride anything but it will feel super weird as you're building up the new muscle memory.

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Peter_Frank
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Re: Learning with Zeeko Carver vs Green

Postby Peter_Frank » Thu May 24, 2018 2:51 pm

There are pros and cons of both a bit small and a bit bigger wing "sizes" indeed.

When you learn, you ride with a bigger kite thus too much power when up and foiling even if for an instant, and your problem will be control and to avoid getting lifted too fast (in fact "ejected" out of the water).

As soon as you have learned to ride a bit, everything will be easier on a bigger wing.

But as Dylan said, dont mix them up for starters :roll:

You dont write what you weigh - so assume you are average weight.
If a LOT above average, go for the carver wing.

If closer to average go for the green wing at first.

And dont change to the carver before you can ride quite comfortably each way, as now you have some control and can take advantage of being able to ride slower when carving and learning new things :naughty:

It is a totally new sport and your body (what we call "muscle memory") dont know anything about how to cope - thus dont ride other boards nor wings for a long period, if you want to learn the best and fastest :rollgrin:
Later you can change easily.

8) PF

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Re: Learning with Zeeko Carver vs Green

Postby alexrider » Thu May 24, 2018 5:19 pm

I've got both, and also first though the Carver would be easier for the learning stage and more adapted for carving (what's in a name!). But after a couple of hundred hours on both, I find the White&Green easier and more predictable. It warns impending stalls with a sort of buffeting and there is no noticeable minimum speed difference. When going back to the W&G after days with the Carver, I found that I need more pressure on the back foot to prevent the board diving during downwind gibes (carves), and the position on the board is more nose up when going straight. Also, the take-off and landing are smoother (less "bumpy"). With the Carver, the board has a tendency to buck up and down before take off. It has probably something to do with different angle of attack relative to the board.
I believe the Carver's profile should be thicker for the purpose it's designed. Hope it's the case for the Blaster's AVS wing.
Another thing to consider: the Carver is considerably heavier; carrying the board is definitely less comfy.
So my advice would be not to consider the Carver for learning, or even for later on.

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Kamikuza
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Re: Learning with Zeeko Carver vs Green

Postby Kamikuza » Fri May 25, 2018 10:08 am

Big wing is going to want to pop you right outa the water at much lower speed. If you're leaning back like a TT rider...HELLO SKY! HELLO WATER! hello pain...

The learning curve will be steeper and more full of beatings. IMO you should ride the smaller wing and use board speed to foil until you have adapted to the different balance needed...

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Peter_Frank
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Re: Learning with Zeeko Carver vs Green

Postby Peter_Frank » Fri May 25, 2018 11:11 am

Kamikuza wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 10:08 am
Big wing is going to want to pop you right outa the water at much lower speed. If you're leaning back like a TT rider...HELLO SKY! HELLO WATER! hello pain...

The learning curve will be steeper and more full of beatings. IMO you should ride the smaller wing and use board speed to foil until you have adapted to the different balance needed...

But it IS a two edged sword !

Here, many of those who had gotten a racewing (relatively small) have found it almost impossible to ride - gotten a LF or a Cab or a Neil Pryde big fat wing, and learned very fast on this one no problems.
And then later re-learned on the racewing.
Others have learned directly on racewings, eventhough it has taken so much time you wont believe it, but it will come eventually (apart from turns, takes forever compared to on bigger wings).

But those learning fast on big wings have all come with sailing and directional "history" which makes it a lot easier to get the fine feel for things - whereas some particularly coming from TTs riding very powered havent build these skills at all yet, so might be better off with a more "racelike" (at least a smaller) wing for starters, till their motorics are more directional well behaved.

I can not see this being black and white - most here learn faster with a big wing, no doubt, but a few will get it easier with a smaller wing probably :naughty:

I see more full of beatings on those riding smaller wings, than those riding bigger wings - so just the opposite observation ?
Which could mean it is not that simple either or...

8) PF

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Re: Learning with Zeeko Carver vs Green

Postby Zandman » Fri May 25, 2018 3:06 pm

Thank you very much all!
Now it's really easy decision to start with the green and stick to it!

I've read all the straps vs strapless discussion and remembering the few times I tried strapless surfboard I'm very willing to take a calculated injury risk in order to ease my waterstarting. Anyway will have them loose.

The question is what configuration would you recommend?
Only front?
Single or double front?
Again seller told me that probably double front without back, any reason why not?

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Re: Learning with Zeeko Carver vs Green

Postby BWD » Fri May 25, 2018 3:16 pm

I ride zeeko Carver and standard wing with anhedral. Mine is older so blue not green. Essentially the same though. I have learned on the carver, to more rapidly progress in feeling the wave effects, to ride in the lightest wind, and to attempt jibes at slower speeds.

I think the standard wing may be easier to learn to air jibe/jibe on foil, though. The anhedral gives a sort of damping in yaw making it easier to maintain a constant radius turn. With the flat carver if I initiate the turn sharply it is rather easy to overdo it and part ways with the board. At least I can do this at 10-12 knots instead of 15+. It’s harder to go slow with the standard wing, and falls while turning from foiling height are worse at 15-20 than 10-15!

But if I want to ride overpowered or fast, or in crazy chop, I will use the standard, sometimes. It goes faster and is more stable in rough water. May do a race with it (open class, mostly sailboats).

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Peter_Frank
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Re: Learning with Zeeko Carver vs Green

Postby Peter_Frank » Fri May 25, 2018 3:48 pm

Zandman wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 3:06 pm
Thank you very much all!
Now it's really easy decision to start with the green and stick to it!

I've read all the straps vs strapless discussion and remembering the few times I tried strapless surfboard I'm very willing to take a calculated injury risk in order to ease my waterstarting. Anyway will have them loose.

The question is what configuration would you recommend?
Only front?
Single or double front?
Again seller told me that probably double front without back, any reason why not?

One or two in front only, very loose, will be the best if you are "scared" of injury, no doubt.

Two front are very comfy thus a good choice, but one front only will be the "safest" as you will slide forward out easier than from a double (because of the angle).

Many learn with a rear strap too though - but the risk with a rear strap is you will get pulled over to leeward when learning, which is NOT fun and risk of injury high if one or both feet get stuck, as the foil will NOT follow to leeward because of the long mast, so your ancles get torn so to speak :o

8) PF

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Re: Learning with Zeeko Carver vs Green

Postby RichR2 » Fri May 25, 2018 4:56 pm

While learning I went for very loose straps until the day I wiped out and my foot got pushed in further as I fell back and the foil folded up towards me. The twisted ankle had me off the water for a while.
Since then I've gone over to two foot hooks at the front, great for helping position the board during waterstarts and there is nothing to trap your foot when you fall...which I did a lot.


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