Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

Flysurfer-specific training?

For all foil kite riders


Mossy 757
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1454
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:10 pm
Kiting since: 2013
Local Beach: First Landing State Park, Virginia Beach Oceanfront
Style: Kitefoil
Gear: Delta Hydrofoil and board. Cabrinha Velocity 9m, Flysurfer Sonic2 11m, Elf Joker-7 15m

Re: Flysurfer-specific training?

Postby Mossy 757 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:15 pm

If you come to Virginia Beach, one of our locals is the national wholesaler for Flysurfer; I was out on Friday and 5 out of 8 kites on the water were foil kites.

That said, if you think you're not getting all the lowend you should out of your 21, that sounds more like it needs to tuned or replaced/repaired. Once you know how to edge and sheet properly, there's not a whole lot else to super light wind riding other than making sure your gear is setup perfectly for the conditions.

Gyre
Rare Poster
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:54 am
Kiting since: 2009
Gear: Flysurfer Speed 4 21m
Flysurfer Speed 3 12m
Flysurfer Speed 5 9m
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Flysurfer-specific training?

Postby Gyre » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:43 am

Thanks for all the suggestions. To cover off a few:
- I've got a massive Flydoor so I can't blame the board.
- The kite has no damage or porosity so can't blame the kite either. To Adventure Logs' point though: I have had internal straps break before, only on my Lotus 21m, maybe a design weakness on that kite.
- The mixer was out of whack so I adjusted it, setting it to Case 5 of this post so will see how much of a difference that makes next session.
- I'm about 190 lbs so maybe body weight is a factor.

And finally: to Mossy 757, I've thought about going to Virginia Beach for exactly that reason. Is it a good spot? I'm up in Ottawa so it would be a serious drive. I don't think we have any foil racers in town here so would be great to get some tips from the riders down there, if I could ever line that up.

windrider1
Frequent Poster
Posts: 405
Joined: Sat Sep 02, 2006 1:51 am
Kiting since: 2003
Gear: FLYSURFER, HQ KITES, OZONE KITES
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: NY

Re: Flysurfer-specific training?

Postby windrider1 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:53 am

Light wind riding is indeed a skill. I fly only foil kites mostly flysufer so hear are some tips. Since u indicted tht your kites have been tuned and use a big board then the first thing u want to learn how to do is is to depower the kite in very light winds , most lei riders don't understand this concept All those lines going to the trailing edge makes foil kites in general a little more sensitive to back line tensions. Second like others saids proper board technique along with easing off on the bar once u pick up speed to let the kite fly forward is also necessary for light wind. most big foil kites should allow you to stay upwind no problem in 8knts but u can start in 6knts . In 10 knts u should be lit and doing all tricks. 21m is not a size to get unless ure a heavy rider lets say over 220lbs as it dosent really offer much improvement over those numbers because of the law of kite size vs speed of kite. in other words in 8 knts a fast kite will give u noticeable more usable power than a 21m . I say ditch the 21m get something like 18m sonic and go from there but realistically 8knts is the minimum u need for a solid session on any big light wind kite with a twintip and 5 or 6knts on a hydrofoil. I have tested these windranges thoughly and there is no devaition so if ure trying to ride in less thn the quoted winranges then that's the issue. Flysurfer makes a more dynamic performance kite vs ozone so u definitely need to have some foil kite skill to get the best out of their kites.
Gyre wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:40 pm
Does anyone know of courses, camps, instructors specific to Flysurfer kites, preferably in North America or the Caribbean? We have plenty of local instructors on tube kites, but I feel that some of the things I want to improve on (eg, optimizing light and gusty winds) need someone who's an expert on big foil kites. Kind of plateau'd at the intermediate level and having a hard time progressing beyond that.
Last edited by windrider1 on Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:14 am, edited 3 times in total.

joriws
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 678
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:03 am
Kiting since: 0
Gear: Flysurfer, HQ, LF, Nobile, North, Ozone
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Flysurfer-specific training?

Postby joriws » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:06 am

About FS kitereps - ain't PKB at Toronto..

To continue low wind riding tips:
- learn to fly kite in fast speed arcs instead of tight turns which stalls the kite. You 6m extensions which were probably included with your kite to gain more room to fly.
- keep bar sheeted out as much as possible, you need to feel the power of kite but don't oversheet.
- keep door twintip as flat as possible and ride against center fin if flydoor is your board - throwing water to side is wasted energy.

Keep trying and learning. Buying a big kite does not automatically make you go on at 6kn.

User avatar
foilonfoil
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 568
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2015 8:31 am
Kiting since: 2013
Local Beach: Belmont Shore, CA / Hood River, OR
Favorite Beaches: Crissy Field, San Francisco, CA / Benicia, CA / Sail Bay, San Diego, CA / Hermosa Beach, CA
Style: Kitefoil
Gear: Flysurfer Sonic Race, Core Section V1's, MikesLab Foil, Camet Boards.
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Flysurfer-specific training?

Postby foilonfoil » Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:35 pm

windrider1 wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:53 am
Light wind riding is indeed a skill. I fly only foil kites mostly flysufer so hear are some tips. Since u indicted tht your kites have been tuned and use a big board then the first thing u want to learn how to do is is to depower the kite in very light winds , most lei riders don't understand this concept
This!! It's a tough concept for many kiters to grasp but unfortunately, because the trim line is called "depower", there is a believe that for light wind, no depower is good. For stronger wind and increasing apparent wind as you get up to speed (especially on a foil board), you will want to depower the kite by pulling in on the trim, but for light wind, you also want to pull in on the trim (depower) the kite for different reasons...

Kites generate power through movement and much of that power is passed through to you via your front lines and harness, and not your rear lines arms/bar.

In light wind, you want to trim the kite (more depower) so that you are not back stalling the kite too much. Back stalling is stopping the kite from moving. On light wind water starts with the kite moving down the window falling a sine, or up the window in the direction you want to go following a kite loop, focus on letting the kite move a little faster by using trim (depower) to minimize back stall while at the same time, NOT pulling the the bar all the way to the chicken loop - you will be surprised how much power is available to you.

Too much trim (depower) and you will lose kite control (slack rear lines) - trimming so that little backstall is available can help to reposition the the kite and keep the tips open in really light wind together to help loop the kite quickly with a little tug in the rear line if you inadvertently start a loop late.

- These concepts also apply to LEI's so IMO, learning/flying foil kites in general helps with your kite skills.

- Obviously all the various model foil kites have different sized power bands (where power is produced at what speed the kite is moving through the window). The high aspect ratio race kites have much more powerful but smaller input ranges where (moving) power is produced. Moving from the Sonic-> Sonic 2 -> Sonic Race and the need to learn optimal kite trimming and how large that power band is.

- With narrower power bands, correct bar setup becomes very important.

- For two different kites of the same size and of a similar aspect ratio, lighter bar pressure likely means that more power is being transferred through the front lines/harness... Instinctively, many of us want to feel the power through our arms, and this takes some adjustment to our thinking and thus how we fly the kite... I noticed this with the transition from Sonic 2->Sonic Race.

- Mixing your foil kite aspect ratios between your kite sizes will mess with your kite skills ;) As an exaggeration, 21M Sonic Race, 18M Speed 4, 15M Sonic 2 since trim behavior, bar pressure, power band will all be different.

- One bar shared across a number of kites? Small adjustments to the kite pigtails (eg extra 1" on rear pigtails) on one or two of your kites may be needed for optimal kite/bar tuning.

Mossy 757
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1454
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:10 pm
Kiting since: 2013
Local Beach: First Landing State Park, Virginia Beach Oceanfront
Style: Kitefoil
Gear: Delta Hydrofoil and board. Cabrinha Velocity 9m, Flysurfer Sonic2 11m, Elf Joker-7 15m

Re: Flysurfer-specific training?

Postby Mossy 757 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:52 pm

Gyre wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:43 am


And finally: to Mossy 757, I've thought about going to Virginia Beach for exactly that reason. Is it a good spot? I'm up in Ottawa so it would be a serious drive. I don't think we have any foil racers in town here so would be great to get some tips from the riders down there, if I could ever line that up.
As kiteboarding spots go, it's not world-class, but we're about 2.5 hours from the outer banks in NC, it's a straight shot south and that is world class. We can ride on anything with east in it, as well as NW. SW is a no-go unless you head over towards Hampton, VA or Cape Charles, VA, all within driving distance but not convenient. Spring and fall sea breezes are the best, and with the spring you get the advantage of being able to ride past 8pm during the early summer. There are a good number of foilers and foil kite flyers, although to my knowledge only a couple of us are racers, mostly it's folks on surf or entry foils playing in the waves.
foilonfoil wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:35 pm
many of us want to feel the power through our arms, and this takes some adjustment to our thinking and thus how we fly the kite...
This is really really important. You need to figure out how to trim to harness pull, not bicep burn!

Gyre
Rare Poster
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:54 am
Kiting since: 2009
Gear: Flysurfer Speed 4 21m
Flysurfer Speed 3 12m
Flysurfer Speed 5 9m
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Flysurfer-specific training?

Postby Gyre » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:30 am

Thanks again for all this, lots of great tips and much appreciated.

fernmanus
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1307
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2004 5:53 am

Re: Flysurfer-specific training?

Postby fernmanus » Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:41 am

I agree that you want to ride slightly de powered in light wind, but you can do this by riding with the bar out a bit from the chickenloop, no reason to pull the depower strap, unless you have short arms.

I am not so sure that you should ditch your 21, just yet. I weigh 10 LBS less than you and I still use my 21 all the time. You get an extra knot or so out of the 21 over an 18, plus you are going to be able to jump sooner as well. I readily admit this is a very subjective area. If you ride where the wind is light, but extremely steady, the 21 does not make sense because as the wind builds you will be overpowered fairly quickly. However, if the wind is gusty with lots of lulls, you will appreciate every extra bit of power to get you through the lulls and you will enjoy boosting on the 21 in the gusts. So for intermittent lightwind go with the 21, for steady light wind go with the 18.

I also have an 18m Soul and I will choose the Soul if the wind is a tad stronger as the jumps are more lofty, but for the lightest conditions the only thing that will beat your 21 and huge board combo is a foilboard and a 15 or 18m foil kite.

I ave taken a trip to Virginia Beech and OBX. Virginia Beach is a good place to ride, OBX may be the best place on the planet. It is truly a kiting dreamland. The locals at Virginia Beach frequently visit OBX, so perhaps you can talk one of them into taking the trip south to ride with you on a long downwinder. The VB crew is friendly and knowledgeable.

If you ever want to ride in the mountains of Utah for some unreal Snowkiting, I enjoy riding with fellow FS riders and I know the terrain well. You would be amazed at what you can do with a big foil in the mountains. :thumb:

User avatar
foilonfoil
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 568
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2015 8:31 am
Kiting since: 2013
Local Beach: Belmont Shore, CA / Hood River, OR
Favorite Beaches: Crissy Field, San Francisco, CA / Benicia, CA / Sail Bay, San Diego, CA / Hermosa Beach, CA
Style: Kitefoil
Gear: Flysurfer Sonic Race, Core Section V1's, MikesLab Foil, Camet Boards.
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Flysurfer-specific training?

Postby foilonfoil » Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:47 pm

fernmanus wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:41 am
I agree that you want to ride slightly de powered in light wind, but you can do this by riding with the bar out a bit from the chickenloop, no reason to pull the depower strap, unless you have short arms.
It had a lot to do with the differences with kites we are flying and their behavior when things go wrong.

Instead of I trim "slightly", "a little" or "a lot"...

- I will trim so that at the very least the kite will not back stall into the ocean if I let go of the bar. Depending on how light it is, I may still need to grab the center lines above the bar to keep the kite out of the ocean.
- I don't want massive backstall as I bar in.
- I want a comfortable riding position.

So trimming is something that is being done throughout my session... And I am replacing my cam cleats every few months.

fernmanus
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1307
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2004 5:53 am

Re: Flysurfer-specific training?

Postby fernmanus » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:26 pm

Foilonfoil,

I rarely use the trim strap, perhaps once every 20 sessions. For me I find enough trim just using my arms. One thing that helps is to not use a hook, I use a Mystic or Ride Engine harness with my chicken loop attached directly to the sliding rope. This gives me lots of adjustment trim. I am 6’2” tall with an arms pan equal to my height. So, perhaps my longer than normal arms help me in that regard.


Return to “Foil Kites”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Huib and 1 guest

cron