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General Strutless Design questions

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Rorke
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General Strutless Design questions

Postby Rorke » Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:33 am

There are a couple active, brand specific posts about strutless designs.

Here are two general questions regarding the strutless design.

When the kite drops in the drink, what prevents the canopy from sticking to the water?
Any video of relaunch?

Also how is self landing? I suspect is very simple.

I look very forward to the upcoming Kiteboarder article on the different strutless designs/brands.

Hansen wrote about strutless's general flying charactoristics. Since my ideal kite would be lower aspect, super short and sensitive throw, light bar pressure, and mega drifty - these kites could be pretty interesting.

I just bought new kites for the first time in years. Then I busted my hip, scapula, and 4 ribs.
So I am simply curious as I am just mending and nerding for a while anyway.

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Re: General Strutless Design questions

Postby tautologies » Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:10 am

Based on the 8 BRM ( I think it is useless to comment on kites I have not tried).

Self launch. Super easy.
Self land. Super easy.

Only tried a few. I would say the kite has to be secured pretty fast;..I am saying that, but the kite landed fine and did not move..and so securing it really holds for all kites.

Relaunch from water, super easy. I have not tried a lot of this, but when I did put my kite down, it had no problems relaunching.

I also just left it on the side on the water no problem. it just waited for me.

The things I disagree with *some* others are...wind range. From reports here, and my general feeling the windrange seems fine. The wind varied a bit when I used it, but had no nuclear gusts.

The kite itself felt grunty yet it mover forward quite easily when put some exrta resistance on it..this part is a little different from other kites...and it is fast turning. It rides different from other kites, but once you get calibrated..took about 5 mins, it is all good.

There is a few things I am very excited about. The lighter weight makes the kite responsive, and it makes it drift well. Looping on the wave was no problem, and it is very reactive when you reengage.

I do have limited time on it, but I am excited both for the concept and for the kite.

I do not really believe I can NOT offer any advice on kites I have not ridden, but I'll try the Trip too.

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Re: General Strutless Design questions

Postby Rorke » Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:23 am

Taut,

Something tells me you will get a turn on the Trip. :D Please share.

I do agree that styles that look similar can vary. The 3 strut, delta-ish kites I have tried have all been very different.

Regarding relaunch...
Did the canopy ever touch the water?
Was it dry the whole time? Or did it initially stick, then peel away with the wind?

Perhaps I am asking something that is simply not an issue at all.

Rorke

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Re: General Strutless Design questions

Postby tautologies » Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:44 am

Rorke wrote:Taut,

Something tells me you will get a turn on the Trip. :D Please share.

I do agree that styles that look similar can vary. The 3 strut, delta-ish kites I have tried have all been very different.

Regarding relaunch...
Did the canopy ever touch the water?
Was it dry the whole time? Or did it initially stick, then peel away with the wind?

Perhaps I am asking something that is simply not an issue at all.

Rorke


Hmm, you know what...I think it is a very fair question. At one point the center of the canopy touched the water...I do not think a lot of water gathered on top of it..I'm not 100% sure..I did not leave it down for long..I wanted to test it in waves so that was my priority. The relaunch come from the wingtips.


When I looped the kite, the canopy was tight. I cannot remember hearing any flutter or noise..but again I will try this more.
I'll spend more time on it later for sure.

I will try this again for sure (once the wind returns) and can probably provide more detail then.

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Re: General Strutless Design questions

Postby ronnie » Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:26 pm

Rorke wrote:There are a couple active, brand specific posts about strutless designs.

Here are two general questions regarding the strutless design.

When the kite drops in the drink, what prevents the canopy from sticking to the water?
Any video of relaunch?

Also how is self landing? I suspect is very simple.

I look very forward to the upcoming Kiteboarder article on the different strutless designs/brands.

Hansen wrote about strutless's general flying charactoristics. Since my ideal kite would be lower aspect, super short and sensitive throw, light bar pressure, and mega drifty - these kites could be pretty interesting.

I just bought new kites for the first time in years. Then I busted my hip, scapula, and 4 ribs.
So I am simply curious as I am just mending and nerding for a while anyway.


This shows self-launching, self-landing and water relaunch.
Looks to me like maybe best you point the end 'strut' almost into the wind and let it fill with wind from one end.


There only seems to be one Airush Lithium Zero 18m so far and it is in Spain. Not much to tell from the little videos.
http://www.spainkiters.com/phpBB2/viewt ... sc&start=0

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Re: General Strutless Design questions

Postby Osprey1 » Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:51 pm

Relaunch: I have 13m and 17m Clouds and work on unhooked tricks on them almost every session. That being said I drop the kite many times per session and so far i have not had an issue with relaunch and can say its almost easier than my Parks. Yes the canopy does stick to the water sometimes but as long as just a little bit of wind gets in the canopy you can relaunch the kite. You do not need to pull as much leader line to relaunch as with a strutted kite. As I've said before these kites paradoxically go unhooked well but don't boost huge.

Regarding boosting on the bigger sizes 13 & 17m (the 8 & 10 BRM jump very nicely and go huge), they do not jump as big as similarly sized strutted kites (Fly, Park, Evo, Switchblade) however they do ride down the line much better when you are surfing swell and don't require as much input from the rider.

Self-launch: No problem just requires a bit more finesse.

Self-landing: Every time I've ridden these kites I pretty much self land so it's not an issue but make sure you can reach your top flying line and give it a good yank whne the kite is about a meter off the ground. Then get to it quickly as these kites require sand on the canopy to keep from flying away in gusts.

I've only flown the BRM Clouds so I can't tell you about other kites. I'm sure this category will expand to encompass a wide variety of flying characteristics

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Re: General Strutless Design questions

Postby Gigi;) » Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:57 am

I had little free time and I compared few designs. So a bit of graph theory, which seems to be very useful if comparing to my tests thru years and the first reviews of commercial strutless kites.

2 tests, once on the same kite type (in my case lower AR open-C), with struts and w/o struts, once both vs. modern delta.

Image

Stuts Vs. Strutless

Image

Same size, same arc, virtually the same AR, but with different profiles and TE as you have to do it on strutless due to the fact of no structural support. Basically this graf represents the differences of the profiles used.

Strut kites can have deeper profiles (within the kite type...), moved more to the back and by that it can generate more lift, more moment. On the end differences are not so big. The most differences are on moments where the one with struts have more forward moment and therefore may sit more forward in the wind window, have beter depower and better upwind. This may also explain the windrange differences. On the other hand strutless is more (pitch) stable and vice-versa the rest. Struts will limit stress on canopy and by those kite will be more controllable at the small AoAs, with less problems "on the bar". C/D graph does not show much differences, only at small AoAs, with some drawback of strutless at very depowered kite. Don't know exactly if the difference comes because profile or TE shape (I believe both).

Compared to modern Delta...

Image

Now, here things gets a bit more interesting. Basically this graph shows you the vs. between Delta and Open-C kites. More swept back wings allows the usage of different profiles so the power per m2 may be greater plus also other factors may be better.

Notice

Please note that these tests are only theoretical, approximation of XFLR5 software and its candies... Explanation is completely M2C, you should figure out yours on your own way.

This post will not tell you which kite is better to buy!


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