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Let's talk about short lines.

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edt
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Re: Let's talk about short lines.

Postby edt » Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:59 pm

coleman wrote:
edt wrote:I have ridden everything from 10 to 100 meters from 7 to 20 meters kite.

jump height on short lines depends on a good gradient.

that's it



100m lines?!?!?!?! holy crap man, tell me more please......


there's a lot of air friction in 100 meter lines I dont recommend it because the friction always pulls directly downwind. Unless the wind gradient is really weird you are faster with 50 meter lines. It takes a very long time for the kite to go from 10 oclock to 2 oclock which if you are properly powered you lose an enormous amount of distance every time you do a turn because you lose your edge and have to wait for the kite to finish. It's easy to loop the kite by accident because of the lag but the loop doesn't necessarily pull you downwind because the kite is so high up it just spins in place and never gets into the power zone. 50m or 60m lines are much more sensible. I could not get my timing dialed into the 100 meter lines so jumps were not that good. I was sweeping the kite too far and I would get pulled off my edge before I could jump. I've only tried the 100m's once or twice by lark's heading 5 sets of 20's together.

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Re: Let's talk about short lines.

Postby Dimitri M » Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:01 pm

I use the 15 meter lines on the RENEGADE 6.5 / 9 / 11 /13 and also on the SURF 5/8/12. But never used it on the INFINITY because then its pointless since the INFINITY was designed for power in light wind. But I am sure it will be fun to use the INFINITY kite on 15 meter lines in 18-20 +++ knots. Maybe its time to test this idea.
Last edited by Dimitri M on Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Let's talk about short lines.

Postby darippah » Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:01 am

Always wanted to minimize my quiver with multiple line lengths. example -

12m cloud:

for 6 -10 knots - 50 meter lines and hydrofoil board
10 to 25 knots with 15m lines or so with a twintip

i wish i had an easy way to add / remove such long lines without having to walk out the lines, currently I have separate bars for each line length but its expensive and a bit of a hassle

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edt
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Re: Let's talk about short lines.

Postby edt » Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:20 am

darippah u dont always gain power with long lines it depends on the gradient. for instance suppose it is blowing 3 or 4 knots from 0 meters up to 25 meters then above 25 meters it blows 30 knots. You want the smallest twintip you have and 30 meter lines. Now suppose it is blowing 12 knots from 5 meters up to 40 meters, a really flat gradient no punch above 20 meters. In this case you want short lines to go faster, 15 meters on your hydrofoil. Remember . . . the longer your lines are the more air friction they have and the more they slow you down. This is why it is all about the wind gradient.

Due to physics at the surface the air is actually stopped. It is going 0 knots at the surface because the wind contacts the ground. Then the wind gets faster very quickly from 0 meters up to 10 meters or so. If you are sine-ing the kite a lot, long lines help immensely because every time you sine the kite down to the surface you lose a lot of wind speed, also the kite is not that efficient when it is turning and with longer lines you can do less turns. So yes, if you are sine-ing the kite up and down all the time it's not entirely all about the gradient there is something to be said for losing energy every time the kite turns. But once you get up to speed and don't need to sine the kite, at that point it is all about the gradient.

Thermals are the types of winds that often have a very steep gradient, the reason for this is that when the cold air over the water rolls back over land, it doesn't make a vertical wall, it instead makes a wedge so you always get the top of the air above 25 meters feeling the thermal before you feel it lower down. You should notice that when you first feel the thermal you want long lines but as the thermal rolls in the wind gradient reaches down to the surface and at the end of the session you can switch from long to short lines.

I think you can do mega jumps on line lengths anywhere from 17 meters up to 40 meters. Below 17 meters it's difficult to get your kite into a good gradient and above 40 meters the timing is difficult.

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Re: Let's talk about short lines.

Postby SupaEZ » Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:02 am

edt wrote:I have ridden everything from 10 to 100 meters from 7 to 20 meters kite.


Would the 20m2 on 100m lines look like a 7m2 or smaller looking at it in the sky ?
Would the 7m2 on 10m lines look like a 20m2 or larger looking at it in the sky ?

Do you have a short answer ?
Life's too short as it is

:tv:

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Re: Let's talk about short lines.

Postby 14ToeSide » Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:12 am

:anon: :housewife: :tv: :pump: :party1:

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edt
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Re: Let's talk about short lines.

Postby edt » Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:26 am

SupaEZ wrote:Would the 20m2 on 100m lines look like a 7m2 or smaller looking at it in the sky ?
Would the 7m2 on 10m lines look like a 20m2 or larger looking at it in the sky ?

Do you have a short answer ?
Life's too short as it is

:tv:



yes, it's funny, i'm flying my 20 on 100's and a little 5 foot nothing girl says she'll catch the kite nearly crushes her, she thought it was a 7 meter. I'm sure there's a life lesson there somewhere.

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Re: Let's talk about short lines.

Postby Peter_Frank » Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:07 am

darippah wrote:Always wanted to minimize my quiver with multiple line lengths. example -

12m cloud:

for 6 -10 knots - 50 meter lines and hydrofoil board
10 to 25 knots with 15m lines or so with a twintip

i wish i had an easy way to add / remove such long lines without having to walk out the lines, currently I have separate bars for each line length but its expensive and a bit of a hassle


Can only agree with all of edt's comments on this one :thumb:

And I think it is a bad way to "minimize" your quiver, honestly.

Shorter lines will not make the kite have less power in more wind (only if below 10m length maybe, and that will not work well).
And longer lines, with typical gradients, will mostly only increase the range (low end) because of the sweep you can add, and only marginally because of more wind up higher.
Too long is not good, not for handling nor for power/performance (except for unusual gradients as edt explained).

So you will end up using a kite on the very upper limit, and very dangerous, with the short lines.
And with longer lines (say in 10 knots on a TT) you will actually be underpowered so you have to work the kite all the time.
Using extreme long lines is generally no good because of the handling when you have to do jibes/turns/waves/tricks on a hydrofoil (or ANY board actually), but can of course be the only solution in rare and extreme wind gradients, agree.

You still have the hazzle changing lines, when the wind changes.
And IF your kite get a defect, you are out of the game because you only have one single kite :(

So having (at least) two kites instead, will really be better and safer in every single way IMO.

The idea of a minimum quiver is appealing, but also deceiving :naughty:

8) Peter

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Re: Let's talk about short lines.

Postby foam-n-fibre » Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:25 pm

Does anyone ride 25m lines anymore? Or is it just that this subject is "let's talk about short lines"? I know that in good solid wind shorter lines work fine, but the traditional wisdom was that something like 25m lines gave a noticeably better "power stroke" to power through lulls. I know guys who have bought newer kites with 20m lines and have added extensions and liked them better, at least in our location with irregular winds. Or did they just like the longer lines better because they were used to them?

Peter

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Re: Let's talk about short lines.

Postby pj sofine » Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:04 pm

I always wondered if the length of lines is just an old carry over from the past. Not an engineer (along with many designing kites) but I wonder what would happen if a kite was designed around shorter lines. Be nice to use up less room at launch sites.


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