Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

The Pansh A15, an A18 review

For all foil kite riders


Regis-de-giens
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 518
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:58 pm
Kiting since: 2002
Local Beach: France: St Laurent du Var, Cannes, Almanarre
Style: 62 kg , light wind
Gear: Conceptair pulsion 15&12, Elf 11 &7, OR Flite 10m , Airush One 9&6, Rally 6&4.
foil Ketos, Zone, OR mako, snowskis, kite-boat
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby Regis-de-giens » Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:08 am

No additional cost on my side for any of the kites I bought on pansh site.

Kiter_from_Germany
Medium Poster
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:39 am
Kiting since: 3
Local Beach: Northern Sea, Netherlands
Style: intermediate Twin, beginner Wave
Gear: Tubes: spleene spx in 9m,12m, ozone catalyst 14, jn wildthing 16,5
Foil: pansh A15 12m, 18m
Gear: Twintips, Directionals
Brand Affiliation: depends on the wind

Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby Kiter_from_Germany » Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:36 pm

pmania wrote:Hi, do you need to pay anything for customs for this kite when it arrives at your country ? What were your experiences ? Update: I had to pay a little 25,48 euro : 7,98 for taxes and 17,50 for handling costs.

BTW:
Kiter_from_Germany wrote:Greetings to everyone.

I finally tweaked my 18m pansh A15 with a 2:1 bar.

Now its very fine for me - even on the water in gusty winds -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDRDpJXdzTg
The starting perriod I let a little longer, perhaps you have an eye on 2:1 bar.
Thank you all folks for beeing in discussion with me the last two month for fiddeling things out!

See You at the spot!
That is my kite bag. :) :P Are you going to kite more at Workum Beach maybe ?
Hi,
sorry for replying so late...
missed your post.
workum is a little sandy, so I turned to maasvlakte next Rotterdam, mainly.
But it depends. Funny with your bag, was a nice day... perhaps we see us at the spot maybe, . The tax where pretty high, I had 70Eur inc handling or so.

While reading through the old posts (from page 33 on) I'm wondering. Can't understand what some guys state:
Aurora 2 should have noticeably more turning speed than A15 compared to same size. ok, just because physics....
Me, for example, had to go to 2:1 bar at A15 in 18m to get turning speed acceptable for me (like speed 4, same size for example).

Beyond theory lets take some views: The vids of aurora 2 in the net show a more agile kite than A15 in original setup - I would say.
https://youtu.be/bpUXqsNAIaY (0:30min) aurora 2, 15m from good guy socommk233

Compared to my workum vid I would say they seem equal - but mine was flown with 2:1 bar, I doubled my bar throw!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDRDpJXdzTg (1:55min) a15 18m with 2:1bar, same vid than in quote.

On both vids you see that the turns are powered, no stalls, which has to be, if you wanna stay on board...
Based on that I would say: Out of the box the aurora is a nice kite for kitesurfing purposes, more than an a15 out of the box (same size assumed).

In my despair all of my RnD doing through the last months is trying to get a more agile A15/18m kite, so I find it funny some guys in the forum saying A15 is agile ('agile' always referred to turning speed).
All may of course be ok for small kites, perhaps, but to be honest I must say that even my a15/12m is feeling like valium out of the box...

Kiter_from_Germany
Medium Poster
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:39 am
Kiting since: 3
Local Beach: Northern Sea, Netherlands
Style: intermediate Twin, beginner Wave
Gear: Tubes: spleene spx in 9m,12m, ozone catalyst 14, jn wildthing 16,5
Foil: pansh A15 12m, 18m
Gear: Twintips, Directionals
Brand Affiliation: depends on the wind

Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby Kiter_from_Germany » Fri May 19, 2017 2:11 pm

To whom it may concern!

Revisions:
Due to the evaluation of this new setup of panshs a15 I gonna change this text always to the best result. Here you find a revision indication with a short text what changed:

1.1 - Tweaks for a15 in 18m and better tweak regarding tip connection (v1.0 tweak led to positive sweep of tips instead of parallel) This tweak is better and works general
1.0 - Original text

Actual Text:
Good news in setting up my panshs a15 (in 12m and 18m).

After fiddeling a lot I finally managed to make pansh a15's work for me with a regular bar.
I gonna document what I did here but to say what I did some informations first:

Summary:
a15 has a great canopy which is a genious fabric with lots of ideas.
Unfortunately the bridle system they supplied is not working well in relation with its kite design.

This mismatch leads to (in my view) horrible bridle setup and a looong depower stroke of more than 1m (front- to backstall) and a mostly useless Z bridle at a15 in 18m.

My fist attempts to solve this problem was to double bar throw by using special mixer setups like malabar or funalex - both principally working - but with negative side effects (no reverse start possible) and so.
I finally came up with the 2:1 bar, which doubles bar throw virtually so for me being able to go on the water, handle this mega depower stroke and have a little fun (->https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDRDpJXdzTg)
Interesstingly pansh website referenced my video with 2:1 bar - incredible... obvious without asking me in advance to use it - thats pansh!
So I permitted them after finding it out..:o)

But I dislike 2:1 bars and I always was disappointed about this loose Z linke thing.

Myfinal goal was to make a nice kite flying with a regular bar - ready for water, and gusty winds!


Short things short - I rearranged the bridle system and "invented" an - in my nomenclature - "backweighted mixer". This is working 0 : 1/2 : 3/4 : 1 instead a regular mixer which works 0:1/4:1/2:1. This means a doubled B and increased C stroke and a functional reverse start option by NOT effecting A and Z!

BUT BEWARE: This works because of the special design of panshs A15 with a B position of connection points not as 25-33% of profile depth instead of nearly 50% of profile depth in reality (center of kite).

Let me show you how i rearranged the bridles:

pash_a15_lineplan_mod_BackweightedMixer_tensionlines.png
In the drawing you find my try to show you the real connection points which are different from the original Lineplan of pansh on website. Do you see, that center B is nearly in the middle of profile?
We gonna take advantage of that.

The thing is, we have to find a bridle setup which is better but not so aggressive that the kite gets instable.
So main point here is to get a better relation between bar throw and depower of the kite.

Take a look on the mixer - it is "backweighted" now - find the difference! :o)

Stability of the kite led to the requirement that the tension lines always have to be straight or back bend. You see - with the connection points supplied (at least in my in my generation of pansh a15) this is the case (I marked the tension lines in relation to the bridles) , we just combine the connection points another way than original.


1st Advantage: We get a good bar throw "stall to stall".

2nd Advantage: through rearranging the bridle system in the way shown the stability of kite gets better. A first video, where I let sit the kite on the ground at the edge of wind window -> not collapsing <- is shown in vid sniplets.

12m (swept tips V1.0) -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfYh_hkxfOI
18m (swept tips V1.0) -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoUfFyuEqZU (stable even with some slight errors in ECL trim lines, you can see at the tips)

3rd Advantage: We can get rid of this loose Z line thing an improved agility because of that.

4th advantage: Better mixer design good for kites with high profile depth (low AR)

5th Advantange: Less air flow during power/depower actions of the kite.
By connecting the bridles nearer to their geometric needs the kite profile, it is not bend so much during power / depower. This leads to the fact, profile stays the way it is and the air stays inside the kite.
The interesting thing is: Last generation of kites made a feature from that, That time they named it holy grail!
Unfortunatels the drawback is, that the profile has to refill air for a few secondes after hard power/depower movements. FOr exp: starting procedure - Effect: upstorke is "hanging". His is not good. Look at the speed 5 best maschine ever - a bridle setup like speed 1 again!

6th Advantage: After tweak you have a mixer trim for B and C (don't know why pansh dont does it by default.

The next days I gonna show up with a vid being out on the water - hopefully the weather is good for that.

Lineplan and splicing plans and rearranging procedure will follow next days - here is some info, nevertheless:
It is pretty straight foreward - most things are prepared by rearranging the sleeved lines together in a different way.
Add some spliced pigtails here and LCLs there, the rebuild was recalculated last weeks to make it handable without destroying original parts to make it reversible.
All and all an effort of good 3h when you know whot you are doing...

For Documentation: Line Lengths (Beware: these are the original measured line length supplied ) This is just for documentation!
The modifications are below that:

a15 / 12m:
pansh_12m.png
pansh_12m.png (15.75 KiB) Viewed 636 times
a15 / 18m:
pansh_18m.png


Modifications here pansh a15 in 12m (swept tips V1.0):


Installation:
Splice Pigtail between: and:
20cm YZ Z
40cm AXY A

Modification Mixer From: To:
0:1/4:1/2:1 0:1/2:3/4:1


ECLs 7,5cm a8
7,5cm a9


Splice Line
-12cm z5678 (new is just shorter than original)
-12cm b78 (new is just shorter than original)


Splice Pigtails
40cm Trimline B DC300 (start with line 60cm before knoting)
40cm Trimline C DC300 (start with line 60cm before knoting)

So you make the knots (top: knotted mixer line, botton: mixer pigrails, prepared):
Trim_Pigtails.png
Look at the mixer knots (with the rings) These are two possibble trim positions ("standard" and "race", "race is a flatter profile . The mixer trim positions I list below are the "standard" positions). Dont use the second knot for now. It seems to make sense only on B line and would be 3cm higher than standard, which would result in a profile 1,5cm more flat.)


New C line Original Length but stronger DC201

Starting Point for mixer Trim (a15 12m) :

Starting Point Mixer Trim for a15/12m (standard mixer Test)
A fix 0 (refernz point by definition)
B Trim: -1cm (trim me!)

Modifications here pansh a15 in 18m (parallel tips V1.1):


Installation:
Splice Pigtail between: and:
20cm YZ Z
40cm AXY A

Modification Mixer From: To:
0:1/4:1/2:1 0:1/2:3/4:1


ECLs 12cm a8
12cm a9


Splice Pigtails
40cm Trimline B DC300
40cm Trimline C DC300

So you make the knots (top: knotted mixer line, botton: mixer pigrails, prepared):
Trim_Pigtails.png
Look at the mixer knots (with the rings) These are two possibble trim positions ("standard" and "race", "race is a flatter profile . The mixer trim positions I list below are the "standard" positions). Dont use the second knot for now. It seems to make sense only on B line and would be 3cm higher than standard, which would result in a profile 1,5cm more flat.)


New C line Original Length but stronger DC201

Starting Point for mixer Trim (a15 18m) :

Starting Point Mixer Trim for a15/12m (standard mixer Test)
A fix 0 (refernz point by definition)
B Trim: +0,5cm (trim me!)
C Trim: -3cm (trim me!)
Z fix -20cm (check should be acheived by line modifications)

Reconnection of Z5678 may not be neccessary for good function (it may not be neccessary to connect it to C bridle.
But if you let Z1234 together with Z5678 pls. put a seperate pigtail of 10-12cm between Z and z45678
I check this in a next riding session (4 weeks?)

CU
Last edited by Kiter_from_Germany on Mon May 29, 2017 10:38 am, edited 15 times in total.

Regis-de-giens
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 518
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:58 pm
Kiting since: 2002
Local Beach: France: St Laurent du Var, Cannes, Almanarre
Style: 62 kg , light wind
Gear: Conceptair pulsion 15&12, Elf 11 &7, OR Flite 10m , Airush One 9&6, Rally 6&4.
foil Ketos, Zone, OR mako, snowskis, kite-boat
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby Regis-de-giens » Fri May 19, 2017 9:06 pm

Nice work and very interesting feedback, incluing the re-inflation need after large and rapid bar movement.
I would just add that your mod of the mixer test leads to having more cambre when bar sheet out for depower and less cambre when you pull the bar to power up , right ?
My first guess would be that you will get a bit less wind range, and an improved turn while kite depowered , have you noticed anytging close to this ?

Thanks for this valuable shearing of experiences.

Kiter_from_Germany
Medium Poster
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:39 am
Kiting since: 3
Local Beach: Northern Sea, Netherlands
Style: intermediate Twin, beginner Wave
Gear: Tubes: spleene spx in 9m,12m, ozone catalyst 14, jn wildthing 16,5
Foil: pansh A15 12m, 18m
Gear: Twintips, Directionals
Brand Affiliation: depends on the wind

Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby Kiter_from_Germany » Sat May 20, 2017 8:11 am

Hi,
may we missunderstood?

Dont understand 'mod of mixer test'...

Due to the connection points of the bridles to the canopy in the center of the kite (they are 0 : 1/2 : 3/4 : 1) the new mixer matches pretty exactly to the geometrics.
The result is, the kite will less de- /inflate during power / depower instead.
This is not the case in turning movements where the kite is wrung, of course.

I dont now the english term of changing the profile during power/depower but I got rid of it.
Flysurfer dont use this effect any more also. In their new speed 5 for example, the go 'Hi AR' but their connection points and mixer is back to the roots ( they are 'geometric related' avoiding pumping effects caused by power/depower)..


Academic interesting is, that with the 'new backweighted mixer' I supplied in my tweak, kite designers could go back to low AR kite designs and still having a kite with a good handling.
Low AR kites are easyer to design and fabrication tolerances are higher. This leads to better cost/margin and a better long time stability... I would assume...
So for them my hint is: Go and check the backweighted mixer (0:0,5:0,75:1).
Last edited by Kiter_from_Germany on Mon May 22, 2017 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

opie
Medium Poster
Posts: 114
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 2:30 pm
Kiting since: 2016
Local Beach: sherman island
Style: foiling
Gear: Ketos Fr2, Fr2XL Cloudkites, Pansh A15 15m, 12m
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby opie » Sat May 20, 2017 5:11 pm

Are there any disadvantages to your mod? Do you think a beginner foil kiter would be happy with it?

Appreciate all the shared info.
Thanks, Chris

Kiter_from_Germany
Medium Poster
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:39 am
Kiting since: 3
Local Beach: Northern Sea, Netherlands
Style: intermediate Twin, beginner Wave
Gear: Tubes: spleene spx in 9m,12m, ozone catalyst 14, jn wildthing 16,5
Foil: pansh A15 12m, 18m
Gear: Twintips, Directionals
Brand Affiliation: depends on the wind

Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby Kiter_from_Germany » Sat May 20, 2017 10:41 pm

opie wrote:
Sat May 20, 2017 5:11 pm
Are there any disadvantages to your mod? Do you think a beginner foil kiter would be happy with it?

Appreciate all the shared info.
Thanks, Chris
Difficult to say - original is worse for learning for sure...

windrider1
Frequent Poster
Posts: 368
Joined: Sat Sep 02, 2006 1:51 am
Kiting since: 2003
Gear: FLYSURFER, HQ KITES, OZONE KITES
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: NY

Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby windrider1 » Sat May 20, 2017 11:59 pm

People are still in to pansh kites. They have been sending out these horribly faulty kites for over 10 years now. ask me how I know. I would love to see the so called designer of these kites . It would be funny to find out it was a really a group of well trained monkeys or maybe some cats or something like that all along :rollgrin: . I cant believe someone actually designs and sends this crap out year after year.

foilholio
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1843
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:20 am
Kiting since: 1337
Local Beach: Ventura Beach
Favorite Beaches: Tarifa
Style: Airstyle
Gear: Foils
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby foilholio » Mon May 22, 2017 6:04 am

Well done Kiter_from_Germany it looks a really interesting mod. I have often thought that getting rid of C entirely on the A15 is possible given that the B position is much the same as the original speed4.

Kiter_from_Germany
Medium Poster
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:39 am
Kiting since: 3
Local Beach: Northern Sea, Netherlands
Style: intermediate Twin, beginner Wave
Gear: Tubes: spleene spx in 9m,12m, ozone catalyst 14, jn wildthing 16,5
Foil: pansh A15 12m, 18m
Gear: Twintips, Directionals
Brand Affiliation: depends on the wind

Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby Kiter_from_Germany » Mon May 22, 2017 8:49 am

windrider1 wrote:
Sat May 20, 2017 11:59 pm
People are still in to pansh kites. They have been sending out these horribly faulty kites for over 10 years now. ask me how I know. I would love to see the so called designer of these kites . It would be funny to find out it was a really a group of well trained monkeys or maybe some cats or something like that all along :rollgrin: . I cant believe someone actually designs and sends this crap out year after year.
Hi,
dont think so, its no crap.

Through my last year of fiddeling I always come back to the point that pansh's design is reasonable, good to (very) well -> MOSTLY.
But why are overall flight charateristics sometimes not matching that?
I thing their designing skills about fabrics are good to partial genious - at laest a15s - even calculations of line length are matching (mostly).

But what may happen?
My actual idea is, that empiric flight tests with competent fliers (egg. in the kites purpose, so water, snow land) may miss.

Unfortunately them (team riders, kiting developers, journeys, videos) are pretty expensive - perhaps not panshs way to supply by decision.
A good developer in western world is around 100K per year overall.
The result would be 2k bucks for a kite to refinance that at least.
Result: The market wouldnt pay, without the shares and reputation of a big companies name.

But here is what I like: Everyone can decide:

If you are claiming a well trimmed functional kite:
Go for the market leaders and buy from them - you will get a proper well trimmed kite (....mostly ..... :rollgrin: )
(If I had the money I would go for FS speed 5 immediately.)

But for economical reasons I decided to go different: I like beeing able to buy for this competitive prices - and have to handle the drawbacks - so I have to fiddle something.
There is no inbetween - noone (even no company) is wizzard.

Used goods have other drawbacks, it is always the same - price - value- price - value- price - value!

I recommend: Just go yor way and publish what you find - help others.
My intent is to bring things foreward, helping others setup for kiting for valuable prices.

Bashing dosent help anone in my point of view.
Last edited by Kiter_from_Germany on Mon May 22, 2017 1:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.


Return to “Foil Kites”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron