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Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

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tautologies
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Re: Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

Postby tautologies » Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:12 pm

spork wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:01 pm
That being said, there's a continuum between copying and developing something that's 100% novel. Almost no one ever creates something that's 100% novel. So the question is - how much do you have to change something for it not to be "bad"?
I agree 100%. Its a hard discussion. They way I see it...there has to be at a minimum someone who who puts something into the community...is part of it. Its an interesting discussion. I know you have 4 million patents to your name, but most of these manufacturers cannot afford a patent.
I know an original patent for foils were tied to the material used somehow.

Gunnar: I disagree that late comers has not contributed. I guess naish contribution might have been outside Kiteboarding, but they certainly put foil on the board for surfing and SUPing with Kai Lenny. North is a pretty familiar in terms of racing so I am not sure that isn't also contributing to foil since racing was the reason foils became so popular. Way back when I was riding the earlier tow-in foils then Carafino...there weren't many people interested. I tried getting Aguera and a few other to make me a SUP foil waay back. That conversation just didn't go very far.

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Re: Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

Postby gmb13 » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:27 pm

tautologies wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:12 pm
spork wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:01 pm
That being said, there's a continuum between copying and developing something that's 100% novel. Almost no one ever creates something that's 100% novel. So the question is - how much do you have to change something for it not to be "bad"?
but they certainly put foil on the board for surfing and SUPing with Kai Lenny. North is a pretty familiar in terms of racing so I am not sure that isn't also contributing to foil since racing was the reason foils became so popular. Way back when I was riding the earlier tow-in foils then Carafino...there weren't many people interested. I tried getting Aguera and a few other to make me a SUP foil waay back. That conversation just didn't go very far.
No they didn't. Go Foil (Alex Aguera) put Kai on a supfoil and surf foil. This is what I mean. People giving Naish credit for something that they did not do. Without Alex we would all still be trying to use super thin Kite Profiles on the Surf foils instead of what actually works. I guess he actually listened. He is actually at the forefront of the Surf Foil revolution producing bigger and better wings, while the other brands are playing catch up with wings that are small and so "last year"

Here is an example of Naish lying about what foil Lenny was riding:

phpBB [video]



He is on an Aguera Go Foil in that video. If I was Alex I would be furious.
Screen Shot 2017-11-23 at 20.35.46.jpg
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Last edited by gmb13 on Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

Postby gmb13 » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:45 pm

spork wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:01 pm
It is bad to bluntly copy somebody work or to steal something.
It's fine to say that it's "bad" to copy someone's work. But it's all too common to accuse people of stealing others' designs. If it's not patented, and there's no contract or NDA in place, it's not stealing. I'm not suggesting it's not bad, but it's not stealing.

That being said, there's a continuum between copying and developing something that's 100% novel. Almost no one ever creates something that's 100% novel. So the question is - how much do you have to change something for it not to be "bad"?
Even if it is not patented, if you 1 to 1 copy the design without permission, it is still theft (legal of not) and should not be encouraged by the consumer.

I agree that being inspired to improve an exisiting product is good. That is how I got into making foils in the first place. I learned on a Carafino, and immediately knew I could make it a lot better. At Magma we then made out own. Inspired by Carafino, but in no way a copy. We made a foil that has a fuselage that could be taken off the Mast, Stabiliser held on by a Kite fin acting as a yaw stabiliser. Things people take for granted now. We moved the development forward, and for a time we where rewarded for this.

What North and Naish and other brands have done shows zero improvement (in some cases moving backwards), and to top the cake, their marketing is making false claims, even going as far as questioning the laws of physics.

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Re: Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

Postby 3InletsWindsports » Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:31 pm

Gunnar I agree with you 100%.
These companies that should have the resources to drive innovation forward don’t, and prey on the innovative ideas that the small companies put in.

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Re: Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

Postby spork » Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:48 am

gmb13 wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:45 pm

Even if it is not patented, if you 1 to 1 copy the design without permission, it is still theft (legal of not)...
I disagree, but now we're down to arguing about definitions.
...and should not be encouraged by the consumer.
I'm less inclined to get into that debate. I will say that I've never bought any boards, kites, or foils from China (or overseas). I do buy lots of dirt cheap electronics (e.g. Arduino stuff) from China via Ebay. Today I bought this...

https://forcekiteandwake.com/collection ... y-foil-set
Inspired by Carafino, but in no way a copy.
Again we're down to definitions. Are you saying that your foil would have been exactly the same had you never seen or ridden a Carafino?
...their marketing is making false claims, even going as far as questioning the laws of physics.
False marketing claims are always bad in my opinion, and I'm a particular stickler for the laws of physics.

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Re: Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

Postby longwhitecloud » Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:16 am

"prey on the innovative ideas that the small companies put in."

100%

I made first ever sidewalled kiteboards in a snowboard press in the world (in NZ), others saw it and did the same. The thing it taught me was that business is business, u just have to stay ahead however you can because there are few rules, if you go down the ethical/moral route your business will likely fail.

That is why I think it is so funny to try and disuade people from buying Chinese foils direct when the kiteboarding industry itself is full of copy and paste.

I completely agree that a lot of kiteboarding innovation has come from small players that are copied and pasted as soon it makes business sense for the big players.

I have the worlds first ever concept drawing of the the electric foil board too that I posted on kiteforum here years ago. I wonder if that is worth anything? They sure are available on AliExpress right now!

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Re: Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

Postby gmb13 » Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:54 am

spork wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:48 am

Inspired by Carafino, but in no way a copy.
Again we're down to definitions. Are you saying that your foil would have been exactly the same had you never seen or ridden a Carafino?

What I am saying is: If I had never seen a Carafino, I would not have gotten into foiling back then. If the Carafino was actually a really well developed product, we would have never gotten into building one ourselves. However we saw a lot of things wrong with it and other Hydrofoils at the time (mainly the one piece T-Bar) and I wanted something better for myself.

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Re: Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

Postby spork » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:29 am

I understand that completely - and I commend you. That's how the state of the art moves forward. I've done that with many things myself. But in my opinion there's a spectrum between 100% novelty and outright copies. Being inspired by something and choosing to improve it, even very significantly, falls somewhere on that spectrum. You already know I think it's not stealing if it hasn't been patented or otherwise legally protected.

In my opinion there are two issues - the legal issue and the moral issue. I think you're perfectly fine on both counts. But that's just me. As we can see in this thread, everyone gets to have their own opinion about the moral side.

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Re: Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

Postby tautologies » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:46 am

gmb13 wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:54 am
What I am saying is: If I had never seen a Carafino, I would not have gotten into foiling back then. If the Carafino was actually a really well developed product, we would have never gotten into building one ourselves. However we saw a lot of things wrong with it and other Hydrofoils at the time (mainly the one piece T-Bar) and I wanted something better for myself.

--
Gunnar
So you are saying you copied Carafino and built on an innovation that Mango made? The shift made with Carafino to its predecessor was pretty radical, but he didn't create the first foil anyone kites on.

Also how do you know what the transpired in getting Kai on a foil? Its not like it was the first foil he ever rode. He started foiling way before Aguera made them. I mean I asked Agure to make me a SUP foil probably 6 years ago. He'd never made a foil before then. It didn't pan out, but I am not sure I would necessarily credit him with that innovation. SUP foils existed before that. It becomes very murky when you credit one or a few persons with something they have built based on others.
I' not trying to take anything away from Agurea and his products...my friends love them...but I think your position is a tad tendentious.

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Re: Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

Postby tautologies » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:47 am

spork wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:29 am
I understand that completely - and I commend you. That's how the state of the art moves forward. I've done that with many things myself. But in my opinion there's a spectrum between 100% novelty and outright copies. Being inspired by something and choosing to improve it, even very significantly, falls somewhere on that spectrum. You already know I think it's not stealing if it hasn't been patented or otherwise legally protected.

In my opinion there are two issues - the legal issue and the moral issue. I think you're perfectly fine on both counts. But that's just me. As we can see in this thread, everyone gets to have their own opinion about the moral side.
:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:


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