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Smaller stabilizers

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Peter_Frank
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Smaller stabilizers

Postby Peter_Frank » Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:51 pm

Hi

Horst Sergio is riding "Stabless" and exploring this.

Extreme livelyness :thumb:

Maybe mostly for the sake of "doing it" yes.

But he is somewhat onto something it seems, as the stabilizers are getting smaller and smaller, and I also use an extremely small one very often, even with my big wavewing, for having max agility and still okay stability and carving feel.

Somehow I find it is not harder to ride with the smaller ones (have ridden with 4 sizes), even jibing does not seem harder really ?

I think (dont know), that the bigger wings are good for absolute beginners, as the foil will not be as rodeolike when learning - but later the smaller ones can give huge advantages in agility, without losing low end if using bigger wings.

What experience do other riders got regarding this ?

I would not go stabless personally, but smaller stabilizers are sweeeeet very often :naughty:

8) PF

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abel
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Re: Smaller stabilizers

Postby abel » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:21 am

From the technical point of view smaller will mostly be swifter; less inertia and drag while bigger will be slower and more stable, right?
There is a trade-off between swiftness and stability (just like birds and airplanes - compare a jumbo with a fighter jet; a falcon with an eagle)
Having smaller wings and stabilizers will enable higher speed, pitch and roll. Shorter fuselage faster pitch and yaw.
Most probably bigger wings would be more friendly for an absolute beginner and even longer term beginner.

I think my original sin was trying to start learning with swift smaller wings. Probably with bigger wings I would have progressed in less time.

So much for the theory...

But practically, we mortals, hardly have enough water time for making small progress steps from session to ...... session.
Not to mention reaching the variety of equipment for testing the changes :wink: I wish I could just try two different HF boards in my spot :-?
Thank you for shearing your thoughts:thumb:

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Re: Smaller stabilizers

Postby plummet » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:52 am

Smaller stab = less drag, more speed, less negative lift, more manuvourability. in theory you have more lift available from the front wing given the same surface area. But at the sacrifice of stability.

Less negative aoa on the stab = less drag, more speed, less negative lift, more manuvourability. in theory you have more lift available from the front wing given the same surface area. But at the sacrifice of stability.

hmmm.... so an easy test to see if you would like a smaller stab is to reduce aoa on your current stab as a test.

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Re: Smaller stabilizers

Postby Peter_Frank » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:13 am

Yes, smaller stabs are more lively, and at some point a lot more difficult to ride - that was not the question as such as we all know that I think.

But it seems that many riders (brands actually) got way too big stabs, as soon as riders have learned to foil quite good ?

That was my point, and would like to hear experience from others who rides (or have ridden) with different stabs (horizontal and/or yaw) on the same foil.

And for sure I can only advocate freestylers/waveriders to put a smaller stab on immediately, if they havent done this or tried it yet :D

At some point it will become too loose and feel "slippery" yes, also in terms of yaw, the tracking gets lost - just like having too small fins on surfboards/windsurfers :wink:
But it seems to be at an incredibly small size this happens, so there is lots of room for agility improvement on a given foil without sacrificing low end (as you would if you took a smaller more agile frontwing) :rollgrin:

Reducing aoa (you actually mean increasing but I know what you mean Plummet) does not have the same or any effect regarding agility, but one could get an idea if the foil is more stable than needed indeed, agree.
But a long way from such a test, to a real ride with smaller stabs (both horizontal and vertical, and swept tips is the same as vertical).

For me, carving (preferably in any kind of waves) is EVERYTHING, this is why I seek the best tools for this :thumb:

8) PF

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Re: Smaller stabilizers

Postby tegirinenashi » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:47 pm

I don't think stab size matters much in terms of drag. Otherwise, small stabs would have been swiftly adopted on race rigs.

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Re: Smaller stabilizers

Postby Mossy 757 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:44 pm

tegirinenashi wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:47 pm
I don't think stab size matters much in terms of drag. Otherwise, small stabs would have been swiftly adopted on race rigs.
The Bionic was a better foil in light stuff than Mike's Lab, which did much better in heavy air and chop. Many attribute this to the Bionic's smaller stab and longer fuse creating similar forces with less wetted area.

That being said, everything I'm hearing is that the cool new trick with race foils is to make the stabs larger and with more neutral AoA so that they're lifty but not draggy, therefore really stable and fast.

It's also possible that what might be theoretically advantageous in a design studio doesn't translate well to what an actual human rider can do. Adding stability and at the expense of some top speed seems to have been a winning formula for the most recent generation of elite race foils.

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Re: Smaller stabilizers

Postby Horst Sergio » Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:15 pm

Yes, Levitaz Bionic is great in light wind, start to love it, due to its super low drag, but still good to average stability, thanks to an extra long and thin steel fuselage and a super tiny stabi with just about 90 cm². Big disadvantage is the weight of just the fuselage with 1,23 kg :o

Image

I used it also with the normal length fuselage which is also a bit to heavy but better. Described behaviour here:
viewtopic.php?f=196&t=2393935&p=982278#p982278
A bit strange was, that in this setup when going to maximum speed which was for me just around 43 km/h due to lack of stability the nose of the board (and there fore the front wing) was coming very much down. Eventually higher speeds are possible when shimming in between board and foil and therefore getting a more comfortable position with less angled back leg.

@Frank
Yes, also think many experienced rider would be happier with smaller back wings to profit from less drag and higher agility. My self I would be interested to have an mid size stabi on a normal or maybe shorter fuselage. Unfortunately till now Levitaz just offers two versions, in this case and in general for freeride, freestyle, wave, ketos offers much more possibilities. Last winter started to think about building a mid size stabi my own, but haven't found time till now:

stabis.JPG
Benefit would be to have similar agility but less weight within the heavy Levitaz system and especially not having to go into freestyle, wave with a stabi like that beneath or in your back :o

Image

On the other hand, anyway till now I will stay with racefoil on one side and with the mono on the other side, as long I don't go into waves I don't think I will need anything in between. Tomorrow first test of strabless mono, hope to be able to catch the board and boost some jumps, already excited to see how it works. :D

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Re: Smaller stabilizers

Postby evan » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:03 pm

Screenshot from San Francisco, seems like Levitaz is going the oposite way: shorter fuse and bigger stabiliser.
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Re: Smaller stabilizers

Postby Horst Sergio » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:03 am

Indeed, there is a picture on there facebook side on more on the video, which also shows a new mid size stabi:

Image

Not sure if this means saying bye bye to bionic stabi and the heavy long fuselage as they updated it just a few month ago, but expect the new has its advantages in some conditions, maybe in higher winds and difficult sea?

On the other hand especially levitaz like all brands is always testing new ways and not all new wings were offered on the end. But presenting it in there tends might tell it is ready for being product?


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