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light wind surfboard vs foil board

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Matteo V
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Re: light wind surfboard vs foil board

Postby Matteo V » Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:48 pm

Greenturtle wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:35 am
I don't feel held back by adding the longboard to the quiver of kiteboards. On the contrary it opens possibilities to more styles and conditions. Such as catching small unbroken swells with kite depowered, then getting upwind again, when only few minutes before, barely holding ground on 160cm door. (Maybe you guys use bigger ones?)
Riding longboard with kite is similar to surfing it, move feet around on the board a lot to dial in. As for upwind drive, move feet forward keeping the nose down. Then engage the full length of the rail.
It’s cumbersome compared to door, no question, and its very slow compared to foil, but it does some different things, and needs very little power to shine.

I really only bring it up because a lot of people already own one. Or can be purchased cheap at a garage sale. Not true for foils.

I like all kinds of boards pretty much equally for what they do (including door), and love changing up during sessions as conditions or mood changes. I like to foil too but don’t always like being limited to deep and weed free water, and I personally can’t ride one in the surf.
I have to agree with you on all of this. You seem to have changed your tune to "it is not the best, but it is fun". That is what it is really about - doing what you want to because a kite allows you to use such wide range of devices to perform such a wide range of riding styles/feelings. Top end performance can be debated and pretty much decided upon. The best "feeling" is completely subjective and can never be nailed down, even for yourself as it is likely to change for you.

On a side note: Doors and other large surface area boards have kind of hit a wall on length up around 160cm. A major limitation is the centered stance and the limits of leverage over the effective tail length it imposes. For a time, it seemed that the direction of LW TT's were going to shorter lengths with wider widths. Reverse or "snowboard sidecut" boards seem to require more length. And that is likely why both standard sidecut TT's still exist and have a following, along with reverse sidecut TT's.

I would love to try out a "Surfdoor" as I have no experience with reverse sidecut on a surfboard.

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Peter_Frank
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Re: light wind surfboard vs foil board

Postby Peter_Frank » Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:57 pm

Archer77 wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:25 pm
Hello all!

I was wondering if it's more efficient a light wind specific surfboard or a foil board approaching a light wind day with a big kite and perhaps 10 knots

(or maybe are almost the same...? )

Agree with Matteo V - whatever we personally like to ride if light wind, is the best, no matter WHAT it is :D

If we go back to the original question above, there is absolutely no discussion whatsoever - and only those who dont ride both will not know :naughty:
They are definitely not "almost the same", not by a long shot in any way :rollgrin:

Apart from the fact that you only need a 9 or 10 m2 if 10 knots on a hydrofoil still blasting upwind and able to jump, and can go much lower with more powerful kites.

8) Peter

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Re: light wind surfboard vs foil board

Postby tautologies » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:11 pm

Having ridden both..and far more different boards than I care to mention foil is easily the type of equipment that gets you going earliest.
Now when that is said and done, I do agree that what ever floats your boat (so to speak) is what you should be riding, I had fun in waves on a longboard in light winds, but you can also ride waves on foils in light wind.

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Re: light wind surfboard vs foil board

Postby Slappysan » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:04 pm

Matteo V wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:21 am
This is pretty much a re-hash of the old debate on volume in kitesurfboards. Volume in kiteboards is not an asset, but more of a hindrance.
My go to kitesurf board that has replaced pretty much all my other boards is a 4'10" x 19" surfboard with 35L of volume. I don't find the volume getting in my way at all and when I hit lulls I can keep riding this board when a less volume board wouldn't have worked. The volume only really helps you get through lulls though. I can hold ground with a 9m in 12 knots and wait for the wind to come back, without that volume I'd be swimming while waiting for it to pick up.

For riding in really LW though my go to board is a 50" x 21" finless skimboard. Once you get in to really low wind the drag created by fins becomes and detriment.

I also do take my 10' x 30" iSUP out occasionally with kids on board. The upwind is actually really decent even in 7 knots. It's not much fun to ride solo though and hard to jibe.

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Re: light wind surfboard vs foil board

Postby joriws » Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:16 pm

Greenturtle wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:00 pm
Joriws- have you tried a longboard with your speed3 back to back against the door?
Nope I don't have any surfboards. But Liquid Force Fish -board I own which is stiff little-volume board. In my opinion not as good upwind on stock lf fins.

Matteo V
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Re: light wind surfboard vs foil board

Postby Matteo V » Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:13 pm

Slappysan wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:04 pm
......and when I hit lulls I can keep riding this board when a less volume board wouldn't have worked. The volume only really helps you get through lulls though.
Most kitesurfers have this misconception about volume, and again, this is a re-hash of the old debate. Much of incorrect assumptions and wrong ideas come from kitesurfers prone surfing background or windsurfing background. In those two sports, volume plays a very important role. But in kitesurfing/kiteboarding, forward motion and board surface area are the only significant factors that come into play when talking about light wind kiting at any board speed above around 2knots. Below 2knots, you sink. Volume does nothing, though most kitesurfers say, and think, that it does. Much more significant than the volume of the board (in light winds), is the upward component of the kite pull. But this upward force of the kite is still insignificant in light winds.

If you weight 75kg, you would need a board that displaces 75 liters of water to "float" your weight (mass above the water, plus a little extra for the weight of the board). Even a 50l surfboard can't "float" you if you come to a full stop. A 35l board functioning in full displacement mode WILL SINK, not float you - nor does it provide any usable flotation to your body unless it is completely submerged and you submerge yourself to start displacing some water too.

Here is a challenge for you, try to ride your kitesurfboard completely submerged. One thing you will find with a rockered board, is that it tends to come up out of the water pretty much immediately when you start moving. That is not float doing that, but rather the rocker and surface area of the bottom of the board as the movement of the board through the water come into play. No movement - the board stays sunk - and pretty deep too, likely up to your armpits or at what ever point which equilibrium is reached when you add 35l to your body.

Saying volume in a kiteboard makes you able to kite in lighter winds is like saying that wearing a lifejacket adds to the flotation of the board while you are riding. In order to provide buoyancy, the volume of a kitesurfboard OR a lifejacket MUST be submerged. Otherwise, it is just extra weight above the water functioning to sink the board.

I am sure there is someone here who can do a better job of the above technical explanation. But here are some examples that contradict the typical idea of volume that most kiters have.

1. A light wind twin-tip has essentially no volume, but rides in the lightest winds. And these TT's can even travel at lower speeds than kite surfboards (if the TT has more surface area, or less rocker, than the surfboard)

2. Skimboards, with volumes not much greater than TT's (woodies are even less than most TT's), can go in lighter winds and at slower speeds than a kitesurfboard (if the skimboard has more planing surface area)

The major differentiation between prone surfing or windsurfing and kiteboarding/kitesurfing, is that volume is not relevant in kiteboarding/kitesurfing due to the power/angle of pull of the kite-rider-board system. In that respect, kiteboarding/kitesurfing has more in common with skimboarding than it does with prone surfing or windsurfing.

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Peter_Frank
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Re: light wind surfboard vs foil board

Postby Peter_Frank » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:01 pm

I disagree....

Volume has a major impact, in terms of "how low can you go", in terms of say hydrofoiling.

Surface area is not the major part, when winds are around 4-6 knots IMO, as volume has quite a substantial role whether you will succeed to ride fully planing, or not :-?

In terms of skimboards or similar, which need more power and/or bigger kites, it is not the same and surface area important, agree.

8) Peter

Matteo V
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Re: light wind surfboard vs foil board

Postby Matteo V » Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:18 am

Peter_Frank wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:01 pm
Volume has a major impact, in terms of "how low can you go", in terms of say hydrofoiling.
How? What is the mechanism that allows you to hydrofoil in displacement mode on a board of less than 40liters?

I use the Liquid Force KiteFish which is extremely low displacement. When the wind is very light, but there is enough wind to waterstart it, you can "sub-plane" the board in what most kiters would consider "displacement mode". But when you have forward motion, you are not in displacement mode as the (sub)planing forces (board, not the wing) are entirely what is holding you up. Proof of this is easy to experience when a no-volume LW TT operates in the same winds at the same speeds as you. If you live in a light wind venue and have a few other skilled kiters around, you have seen it or you have done it.

Peter_Frank wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:01 pm

Surface area is not the major part, when winds are around 4-6 knots IMO, as volume has quite a substantial role whether you will succeed to ride fully planing, or not :-?

8) Peter
Winds do not matter, only water speed and planing surface are significant, given that looping or sining the kite can generate power/apparent wind in the wind-window. The wind-window is what seperates kiteboarding/kitesurfing from all other sailing disciplines. Surface area is the only significant contributor to a planing hull's motion. Displacement only occurs when the board is stoped. Any movemment of the board generates lift from the planing surface. Surfboards less than somewhere around half of the displacement of the rider are not capable of displacement riding. At the same point where you have enough speed to keep the board on the surface, the board is no longer in displacement mode. This is the key concept. No one would want to kiteboard/surf at a speed where displacement has any significant effect.
Peter_Frank wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:01 pm

In terms of skimboards or similar, which need more power and/or bigger kites, it is not the same and surface area important, agree.

8) Peter

Let me make your argument against my argument for you - Old fashioned kite raceboards of 40l-55l. These boards are around the half the displacement of the rider. I weigh around 100kg or displace 100l of water, so I would need around a 50l or more displacement raceboard to have any real benefit. And the benefit would only be in the form of a VERY temporary effect of holding me up on a dead stop during a tack WITH kite power. This is the only argument that has any merit. But as an argument, it still does not hold water when you consider the following.

Is terminal velocity due to the geometry of the board (feather vs penny falling experiment) through the water what is doing more of the "holding you up" than the volume?
Just try to jump and stand on a 50l board without kite lift in shallow water near the beach. near the beach - you still sink almost instantly. But here is where the math experiment comes in to disprove the "displacement/volume is beneficial" idea. See the following diagrams - still working on them.

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Re: light wind surfboard vs foil board

Postby dylan* » Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:43 am

im not going to read all 9 pages of the thread lol, but i'll say that i can kite in just as light of winds with a big kite + lightwind surfboard as I can with a foil, pretty much. theres a lower limit to what a kite will fly in, and ive found i can ride a 17m + surfboard in about 10 knots. i can foil from about 9 knots on my 12m but don't really go out unless its at least 10-12 since i don't like worrying about dropping the kite.

the only difference is the upwind angle, the foil can ride circles around someone on a surfboard

personally i find a big kite + surfboard more fun to ride in general, but when the wind is that light there aren't any waves, so whats the point really. may as well ride a foil where you can cover some ground and do an upwinder/downwinder somewhere.

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Re: light wind surfboard vs foil board

Postby matth » Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:37 am

I think it all plays a role, volume, planning surface and rocker. My last windsurfing board was Only 115 volume which is mid volume, most light wind boards have much more volume around 150ltr. My 115ltr was super wide ,which gave it lots of planning surface and it would get up on plane almost as fast as a true light wind board but more stable and less bouncy as the higher volume board. So same size boards(planning surface) with different volumes will behave differently in light wind. Larger volume will plane sooner without question because it has more float , but low volume is more manageable once planning.


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