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Chrono V1 tip tucking

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kitexpert
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Re: Chrono V1 tip tucking

Postby kitexpert » Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:52 pm

Downunder, you are right. Actually me included got a bit tired at some point with foil kites. Some years ago (actually quite many now :) ) those I used to use were getting out of tune and also had started to leak. I did quite a lot adjustment work then and earlier, even complete redesigns for the bridles, some with good and some with not so effective results.

With my own designs my principle has been simple: the less tuning the better. Of course Z tension has to be always adjusted, but if kite is a good design it flies well on its first flight. Mostly I look how clean the wing is - if it looks good and doesn't do any tricks it is all good. But I have had my share of not so good ones, then tweakings to save what can be saved has had to be done but unfortunately there is quite limited possibilities there.

You can trust me, after using some 100 hours to build a kite you really want it to fly acceptably, to be usable. And I have tweaked: bridles, mixers, pulley ratios, fixed line rows, internal strapping, airfoils, canopy curvature and even cell shapes :roll:

Never I have had to make things especially complicated because all kites I've worked with have responded to quite normal and straightforward methods of tuning (except the ones which leaked). One thing I've found useful when tuning is to have a helper to fly the kite, then it is easier to see from closer distance how kite looks like/flies in different parts of WW. However with experience you know quite well from how kite behaves what is wrong and what should be done.

I must say foilholio's explanations have many times be too weird and too confusing for me too. It is kind of strange because I think I should know how foil kites are manufactured and tuned after working so many years with them. Of course in reality basics of the foil kite bridles and mixer are not at all that complicated than it looks like after reading foilholios posts.

It seems like foilholio continues with his hazy explanations, no need for further comments.

foilholio
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Re: Chrono V1 tip tucking

Postby foilholio » Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:56 am

kitexpert wrote: complete redesigns for the bridles, some with good and some with not so effective results.
When understanding has no solid base in reality, complete designs are expected to have problems.
kitexpert wrote:Of course Z tension has to be always adjusted
Well that would suggest design is always wrong for the user. Strange designer being user would make such a kite, maybe something wrong with his CAD program :-) No seriously actually!
kitexpert wrote: And I have tweaked: bridles, mixers, pulley ratios, fixed line rows, internal strapping, airfoils, canopy curvature and even cell shapes :roll:
But why did you do that when by your own words the best thing to do would be to scrap the kites and start again?
kitexpert wrote: One thing I've found useful when tuning is to have a helper to fly the kite
Your helper has your old kite design gig now doesn't he? Which of you had the better understanding? Why did he get your job then?

kitexpert
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Re: Chrono V1 tip tucking

Postby kitexpert » Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:43 pm

foilholio wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:56 am
When understanding has no solid base in reality, complete designs are expected to have problems.
Correct, and good reason why I can not recommend you any kind of designing work. I'm afraid you are not reasonable enough, creative perhaps.
kitexpert wrote:Of course Z tension has to be always adjusted
foilholio wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:56 am
Well that would suggest design is always wrong for the user. Strange designer being user would make such a kite, maybe something wrong with his CAD program :-) No seriously actually!
CAD program doesn't include mixer design, either it isn't needed. That is why mixer has to be fitted to a kite. It depends on how bridle is done and also kite size how long adjustment line brakes need.
foilholio wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:56 am
But why did you do that when by your own words the best thing to do would be to scrap the kites and start again?
If kite has some elementary flaws it is best to redesign it. For example if kite airfoil has too much camber and is therefore too unstable there is not much to do (if depowering and good usability is required).

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Re: Chrono V1 tip tucking

Postby PullStrings » Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:49 pm

TIP tucking is normal and OK it helps the kite to turn faster
I was told that by Flysurfer years ago after demo of SP3 15 regular cloth
What a load of BS that was

Sorry you two to interrupt

Go back at it now ....my money is on kitexoert on the left :cash:

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Re: Chrono V1 tip tucking

Postby foilholio » Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:12 am

Don't underestimate the little guy!

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andrzejwodejszo
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Re: Chrono V1 tip tucking

Postby andrzejwodejszo » Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:38 pm

PROBLEM 100% FIXED :) +3,5cm Z lines in Chrono 12 THANKS !

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flying grandpa
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Re: Chrono V1 tip tucking

Postby flying grandpa » Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:54 pm

andrzejwodejszo wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:38 pm
PROBLEM 100% FIXED :) +3,5cm Z lines in Chrono 12 THANKS !
The same for my 13m Sonic2.
After mixer test and B,C correction tip tucking started.
4 cm longer Z made tiptucking gone.
Kite gained a bit in upper range as well.

Tadeusz

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Re: Chrono V1 tip tucking

Postby foilholio » Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:04 pm

Mixer test often does this, because of Z shrinkage in the bridle. Z adjustment is so much simpler, to do and understand. B and C really do not need to be touched, unless you are "really" fine tuning, or changing the B limit for depower, which you still alter Z for aswell.

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flying grandpa
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Re: Chrono V1 tip tucking

Postby flying grandpa » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:09 am

foilholio wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:04 pm
Mixer test often does this, because of Z shrinkage in the bridle. Z adjustment is so much simpler, to do and understand. B and C really do not need to be touched, unless you are "really" fine tuning, or changing the B limit for depower, which you still alter Z for aswell.
I wonder how the above fix to my Pulsion 18m, where the regulation is on the front A line.
For stronger winds I increase A length but it still is not enough. One year ago i could kite in 15 knots, now it is much less comfortable.
should I increase Z and how much?

Thank you - foilholio - foil kite guru for many of us.

Tadeusz

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Re: Chrono V1 tip tucking

Postby foilholio » Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:50 pm

Well to increase depower you increase ZCB in the same ratio as the mixer 4:2:1. This keeps the camber the same. How much is you can measure the pulley lines and work it out( I have posted a ridiculously long post about this before). You could shorten A to increase depower but that will change camber more positive. Lengthening A will reduce your depower, not good for more wind.

As to using Z to tune camber it is very easy. Unlike adjusting B and C it is less sensitive. You just change it a few cm here or there. I even change it up to 10cm for different conditions. I can just move a larks head for different settings.

Given you have an adjustment for A, you could shorten that to fix depower. Then extend Z to correct the camber. But you may find your B and C are not quite correct doing it that way.
Last edited by foilholio on Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.


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