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Pivot vs Enduro

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alford
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Pivot vs Enduro

Postby alford » Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:29 am

Wondering how these two stack up against each other. Both have good wave chops but are not pure wave kites. Bar pressure, turning speed, drift, grunt and boosting??? Especially interested in sizes 9-14m. Thanks

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edt
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Re: Pivot vs Enduro

Postby edt » Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:45 pm

Neither the pivot or Enduro is meant to be a wave kite, what they excel at is doing fast powered turns, so for instance, kite loops, hand drags, megaloops, both kites catch you very well and both loop very fast. The Enduro pulls a bit harder in the turns, and the pivot is probably the highest jumping tube kite on the market today. If you want a pure wave kite, then neither of these kites are what you want. If you want an all arounder kite, then the Pivot is probably slightly better at all around, while the Enduro is a bit better if you want to do some unhooked tricks. These are two of my favorites kites for 2017-2018. I would not suggest buying the Pivot from 2016 and earlier as Naish made a lot of improvements for 2017. For a pure wave kite if those are the two you are looking at, I think the Pivot is better than the Enduro, but of course, 3 or so years down the line you will have to factor in the added cost of repairing the octopus which while improved is still has extra expense and hassle. if you change out your kites more frequently than that go for the Pivot just because you mentioned waves. I ride C kites a lot so for me both of those kites have negligible bar pressure I didn't even think about it. As for "grunt" I'm not sure how to classify grunt exactly. Is that how much power you get in a turn or is a kite performing like a larger size so for instance a 10m kite pulling like a 12m?

One reason I love these two kites is a direct linear feel. You pull in the bar half way you get half the power of the kite. Other kites, are nothing nothing nothing, then bam! All the power comes in at once which I hate. Also both kites are incredibly direct you move the bar and the kite moves almost instantaneously. There's no lag at all in either kite.

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BillyGoatGruff
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Re: Pivot vs Enduro

Postby BillyGoatGruff » Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:25 pm

I fly Naish Torch's, and have flown my friends 11m (2018) pivot. My thoughts on the pivot:
- Grunty kite with lots of low end power, but think you could lose a bit on the top end because of this ?
- Fantastic boosting kite, and so easy to land big jumps on. It really puts you down butter smooth
- Easy to kiteloop, but little pull compared to a "C" kite
- Slow turning compared to a Torch, and you are always moving the bar in and out. I like the bar but found the depower rope too long
- Kite looks exceptionally well made but the bag is a little small, and does not fully unzip to stuff the kite in on a windy beach.


I would buy a pivot if you want to rip fast and do big floaty jumps. If you want to unhook there are far better kites out there (vegas, torch, fuel etc)

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Re: Pivot vs Enduro

Postby alford » Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:43 pm

Thanks for the responses. I realize both are do- all kites with some wave ability but not pure wave. To me grunt is a kite that pulls more than its stated size would indicate, a10 that pulls more like an11 or 12.

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Re: Pivot vs Enduro

Postby alford » Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:54 pm

Regarding octupus system, never had one apart. Are you saying the average guy will need to seek out a professional repair service even if somewhat experienced with conventional systems? That much more tricky? Not doubting you edt, just clarifying. Thanks

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BillyGoatGruff
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Re: Pivot vs Enduro

Postby BillyGoatGruff » Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:04 pm

No... the octopus system can be repaired by anyone. I really like the internal octopus system, all you need is some PTFE tape and nimble hands. I would not consider the octopus system a negative.

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Re: Pivot vs Enduro

Postby edt » Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:55 pm

alford wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:43 pm
Thanks for the responses. I realize both are do- all kites with some wave ability but not pure wave. To me grunt is a kite that pulls more than its stated size would indicate, a10 that pulls more like an11 or 12.
Ok well I guess I have to give my opinion on this. At one time I took all my kites, put them on the ground on a grid, and measured the exact square meters of all my kites. Some of my 10's were 11m in size, some of my 12's were 11 in size, North kites were pretty much on target but all the rest of my kites were off from anywhere from a half meter up to a meter difference. Without fail a "grunty" kite was a kite that was mislabeled. So a 12m that felt really grunty always measured at 13m in area. And also without fail a kite that was super fast for it's size was low. So a 12m that was incredibly nimble for it's size always measured in at 11m. There's a reason a 10m kite is "grunty" and it's almost always because it's really an 11m kite.

Now other handling characteristics, like how it loops, how it pulls in turns, how far back it sits in the wind window how high it jumps, how it drifts, how well it catches you in a kiteloop those things are due to kite design. But "grunt" is something I think the kite manufacturers like to run an angle on. Depending on how a kite is being marketed, "Grunty", "Wave", "Fast", they will either move the size up or down from the stated kite size printed to give it those characteristics. So a wave kite will be shaded down in size, a 12m wave kite will really be 11m and a kite that is supposed to be grunty, a light wind 12m kite might measure 13m.

So my advice is don't get too stuck on the printed size of a kite if it feels like a 12m but has printed on the kite "13m" just treat it like a 12, what matters is how the kite feels, not what is printed on the kite.

How can you know ahead of time that's the question. One answer is just demo the kite, but you can't always demo.

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edt
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Re: Pivot vs Enduro

Postby edt » Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:01 pm

BillyGoatGruff wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:04 pm
No... the octopus system can be repaired by anyone. I really like the internal octopus system, all you need is some PTFE tape and nimble hands. I would not consider the octopus system a negative.
Anyone can repair it, like Billy said above. The problem is if you send it out for someone else to repair it, usually they charge more for the octopus because you have to mess around with the valve ring, teflon tape. If you are doing it yourself, then I don't think it's too much of a negative. I did have a 20m Naish Torch that I was really fond of, but it was so old that all of the male parts had cracked off, and the repair was just too much effort for me to bother so I sold it for parts. I also have a 19m Fuel from the same era, but it's easier to repair than the octopus, so I did all the valves (13 valves) on my 19 and saved it. I would guess you take twice as much time to fix an octopus valve compared to regular valve. Something like that.

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Re: Pivot vs Enduro

Postby Gonzolinho » Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:26 pm

OhOh! Someone talking bad about the Octopussy System - so we are going to receive a visit from our representative very soon...
You are right edt, better have one minor at home do fix that for you. Had to repair an Octopus kite twice. Never again.
My local repair center refused to repair it as well so had to do it myself and sold the kite immediately.

Nothing wrong with the kite though.
Pivot is a powerhouse for sheet-and-go style the Enduro needs aparent wind in the low ends.
Enduro quicker turning and flying further forward in the wind window. Pivot clearly better hangtime and easier to jump high on.
Doesn´t mean the Enduro can´t but you need a more precise timing.
In waves they both are only second joice if you buy them for that but they can do it as you can adapt to everything. But other than according to many positve magazin tests I don´t find the Pivot to drift too well.
But we all know that it is only a matter of the number of ads placed by the manufacturer and you can read some additional positve characteristiccs.

The Pivot is also quite prone to backstalling in the real low ends if you are sheeting in too strong with the bar. My friends using the North/Duotone Evo as their kites complained about that the most. In higher winds they liked the Pivot and found it very similar to the Evo.


Happy to being able to come back to Naish again soon though.

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Re: Pivot vs Enduro

Postby iriejohn » Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:39 pm

alford wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:43 pm
Thanks for the responses. I realize both are do- all kites with some wave ability but not pure wave. To me grunt is a kite that pulls more than its stated size would indicate, a10 that pulls more like an11 or 12.
I use Enduro V2's. In the centre of the kite there is a bridle setting which when you set it to "freestyle" it opens up the canopy a little and improves low end and increases bar pressure at the expense of slightly slower turning. It really does work and I mostly use this in my 12m in marginal conditions.


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