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Fatality in France

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downunder
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Re: Fatality in France

Postby downunder » Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:53 am

Matteo V wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:50 pm
knotwindy wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:32 pm
Can we please stop telling people we don’t know how much wind they can ride in safely. If you don’t know them or their local, you have no idea what they are capable of, so stop pretending you do. Thank you.
Two things:

1. If you really mean "don't tell people you know better than them when you are unaware of many of the critical variables in that specific situation", then I agree with you with one exception (following point)

2. If you can point out a known safety variable in that specific situation, such as:
a. a beginner going out for their first ever session, and it is blowing 30knots -even steady wind
b. a beginner going out in 10-35knot winds that other experienced kiters are giving up on because of the turbulence/gustiness/direction shifts
c. the use of a snap shackle safety in gusty or above 25knot winds (my opinion is that they should be never used, though they are only certain death in higher winds or waves)

Then you can reasonably state that this is something that should not be done, even if you are half way around the world from this spot/incident.

Matt V again in more than 2000 words, not respecting or knowing any single point about the local conditions and riders ability...

No matty, if someone wants to use a snap shackle, that has nothing to do with you and your opinion does not count. Same with my opinion.

So please stop telling people YOU dont know or go and talk to Dimitry to stop jumping off/on things....

Because WE know you cant. And he can.

Thank you.

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Re: Fatality in France

Postby iriejohn » Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:34 am

Toby wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:06 am
iriejohn wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:55 pm
Toby wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:28 am
But many times it is hard to see a thumb up or down!
Hand on head, being the international signal for landing the kite is clearer.
When coming in hand on head means I want to land.

When launching thumb up means ready to launch.

When launching thumb down means do not launch.
Now tell me: what do you do when not launching?
On the thumbs down signal the person launching puts the kite on the ground and keeps it there while if necessary I disconnect before walking to them and taking control of the kite.

Does this answer your question?

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Re: Fatality in France

Postby Toby » Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:33 am

Yes! Exactly what I wanted to read...

Same as putting hand on head! Which is much better to see and everyone should know!

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Re: Fatality in France

Postby iriejohn » Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:08 pm

We use hand on head when the kite is already flying. Thumb up and thumb down are pre-launch signals.

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Re: Fatality in France

Postby Matteo V » Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:14 pm

I think you need to put your reply on the "alcohol and kitesurfing" topic. Or at least it is my opinion that you are a little off. It's really becoming evident that you are not here for the exchange of knowledge and opinions. I would say that you are here to hear to find an echo chamber for your way of viewing kiteboarding. Unfortunately, this place is very much the opposite for you, and almost any kiter. So let's get started, shall we?


downunder wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:53 am
Matt V again in more than 2000 words, not respecting or knowing any single point about the local conditions and riders ability...
Your word count is off. And my point is exactly that local conditions (and conditions on that day) are a variable that one cannot account for unless you were there. BUT, there are no local conditions where a 12m kite will work in 50knot winds for a 100kg rider at any altitude on this earth where liquid water exists. So yes, I can DEFINITIVELY state that as the issue, if those were the conditions, from half way around the world. That is why my response was 2 part. You can think of it as "minor variables" vs "major variables"


downunder wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:53 am
No matty, if someone wants to use a snap shackle, that has nothing to do with you and your opinion does not count. Same with my opinion.
If you do not want opinions contrary to yours, then you are in the wrong place. I am glad you are here to present your opinion and your opinion is more valuable than mine. That is because you have a dissenting opinion which goes against the norm and brings to light the reasoning behind why your opinion is seen as wrong by the evidence. That is how a free and open forum works to better the knowledge of it's users. Again, let me restate that YOUR OPINION, being dissenting, IS MORE VALUABLE here than mine. The problem you have is that you refuse to hear reasoning and evidence contrary to your opinion. And that is ok as there is always a certain percentage of the population at the lower tail of the bell curve. I can't stop that, nor can this forum. The hope that experienced forum participants have is that there may be a way to sway those who are close to that lower end of the bell curve, and our advice can bring them up a little bit.


downunder wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:53 am
So please stop telling people YOU dont know or go and talk to Dimitry to stop jumping off/on things....

Because WE know you cant. And he can.
Please re-read your post wording here. This is where I got the whole 'you should be on that other thread thing'. Maybe you are ESL? If so, then no problem. But I still need, "go and talk to Dimitry to stop jumping off/on things...." re-written to understand what you mean here. But it seems that you may have a little bit of a one person fan club going here since you are mentioning him to me so much. I respect him, but I don't think I want to join your club as it would ruin the auspicious connotations of if being a club of one.

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Re: Fatality in France

Postby kitexpert » Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:45 pm

iriejohn wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:08 pm
We use hand on head when the kite is already flying. Thumb up and thumb down are pre-launch signals.
Hand on head is better and there is no reason why it couldn't be used when launching or why there should be different signal to abort launch. I've seen a situation when kiter had some problems and used some time with his chickenloop or smth, so helper had to keep kite for a long time ready to launch. Finally kiter showed his signal and helper let go - too bad it was thumb down. Nothing serious happened but it was awkward situation.

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Re: Fatality in France

Postby iriejohn » Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:05 pm

kitexpert wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:45 pm
iriejohn wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:08 pm
We use hand on head when the kite is already flying. Thumb up and thumb down are pre-launch signals.
Hand on head is better and there is no reason why it couldn't be used when launching or why there should be different signal to abort launch. I've seen a situation when kiter had some problems and used some time with his chickenloop or smth, so helper had to keep kite for a long time ready to launch. Finally kiter showed his signal and helper let go - too bad it was thumb down. Nothing serious happened but it was awkward situation.
If you're kiting with people who you think might be unsure as to what the hand signals mean then you're potentially in the sh1t right from the start.

A more appropriate launch abort signal might be one where the arm is not raised at all, such as reaching down and holding your crotch.

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Re: Fatality in France

Postby PullStrings » Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:15 pm

All that talk about the rider and signs to give the OK !!

That's not how i operate if someone needs help to launch
I first have a talk on how i will do it....and if they don't agree...too bad

I will ask them to hold their position while i will go set-up the kite with lines tight on it's wingtip with enough wind in it to stay " stable on the ground "
I will then walk away backwards upwind 5 feet while keeping and eye on kite and rider

At that time the rider can re-position himself a bit upwind or downwind if needed to stabilize the kite and make doubly sure that all lines are clear
Then he can proceed to launch his kite safely on his own...or... if he changes his mind i will be nearby to go grab it slowly and surely and put it down....zero drama

I do not " toss " people kites "up "
I assist a launch with the rider facing the water / makes the kite at the shortest distance to the water...except of course with directly onshore winds...rider & kite are even to water
That way he/she can launch & walk by keeping kite at 45-60 degree angle...and not have to send kite overhead past zenith ( especially important in 25 to 40 kn ) to go in the water
Also i have them put their board near the water's edge before the launch....so they don't have to carry it right after launching...they need all their focus on the kite's behavior in high winds

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Re: Fatality in France

Postby kitexpert » Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:12 pm

iriejohn wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:05 pm
kitexpert wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:45 pm
iriejohn wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:08 pm
We use hand on head when the kite is already flying. Thumb up and thumb down are pre-launch signals.
Hand on head is better and there is no reason why it couldn't be used when launching or why there should be different signal to abort launch. I've seen a situation when kiter had some problems and used some time with his chickenloop or smth, so helper had to keep kite for a long time ready to launch. Finally kiter showed his signal and helper let go - too bad it was thumb down. Nothing serious happened but it was awkward situation.
If you're kiting with people who you think might be unsure as to what the hand signals mean then you're potentially in the sh1t right from the start.

A more appropriate launch abort signal might be one where the arm is not raised at all, such as reaching down and holding your crotch.
I'm not sure why that happened, but I think helper got tired of waiting and/or didn't see clearly what signal was and just reacted when he showed something. Hand on head could have been more clear. Personally I have used thumb up/down signal without problems, but I see no reason why it couldn't be hand on head and even better like that.

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Re: Fatality in France

Postby Toby » Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:18 pm

kitexpert wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:12 pm
iriejohn wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:05 pm
kitexpert wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:45 pm


Hand on head is better and there is no reason why it couldn't be used when launching or why there should be different signal to abort launch. I've seen a situation when kiter had some problems and used some time with his chickenloop or smth, so helper had to keep kite for a long time ready to launch. Finally kiter showed his signal and helper let go - too bad it was thumb down. Nothing serious happened but it was awkward situation.
If you're kiting with people who you think might be unsure as to what the hand signals mean then you're potentially in the sh1t right from the start.

A more appropriate launch abort signal might be one where the arm is not raised at all, such as reaching down and holding your crotch.
I'm not sure why that happened, but I think helper got tired of waiting and/or didn't see clearly what signal was and just reacted when he showed something. Hand on head could have been more clear. Personally I have used thumb up/down signal without problems, but I see no reason why it couldn't be hand on head and even better like that.
that's my point. Really hard to see if up or down. One can see the arm and a fist, but up or down is tuff...hand on head is completely clear.


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