Ram Airs Crash in 2003

[charlie_don't_surf]

Man, ya'll are forgetting the fundamental deciding separator between LEI's and foils.

FOILS ARE BULLET PROOF. I can shoot at mine with a pellet gun all day and nothing happens. I dare you to let me take one pop at your leading edge with a projectile weapon.

In the days of the High Security Alert (Code ORange), you never know when Osama is gonna target the infidel kitesurfer....BEWARE of kite terrorism! Protect yourself, ride a RAM air kite!

LOL!
PR

[cyclone]

SQ, why dont psycho`s win all the hangtime comps??? youd think flysurfer would get some top riders on them and make a point of winning as many hangtimes as possible- it would be great selling proof of what they could do yeah???
I havnt flown a psycho myself but ive seen a few in action and they did seem floatier but they werent getting the height.

A great measure of kite performance is how the big sizes fly.

Real Kite loops are cool because of the power they generate not just because the kite does a loop.

A kites turning speed is one, if not THE, most important feature to consider especially in the big sizes, you all know that!
This is the main reason i didnt like my ram air. There is just so much shit you cant do on a slow turning kite...

Experienced riders buy kites that fly and perform in all aspects as best as they can find so it doesnt limit the riders potential, not because they pump easier/quicker, RECON, launch land easier, durability etc... these are all secondary. I believe this is the main reason why most pros prefer LEI.

I and everyone i know have abolutely no problems with launching/landing solo, relaunching, durability, pumping etc... but we are ALL always looking for a new kite that performs IN THE AIR better!

Im not saying anything about foils suitability for anybody else, just the full on, go hard, people who compete and hence the title of this thread, `rams airs crash in 2003`.

[sq225917]

i'd agree with you regarding the turning speed of foils and lei's thats why i went lei when the chance arose. the psycho is a strange choice to discuss.

i believe from my time with the kite, over a year, that it goes upwind better than any other kite i've used, has more depower than any other kite i've used and with correct technique can provide more hangtime than any other kite.

i've limited experience of the g-arcs but the flysurfer psycho has a ridiculous amount of angle of attack adjustability, i could stand on the beach depowered and with a pull in of the bar copuld produce enough lift to take me and two friends hanging off my ass into the air, i've got this on tape so its depower is not in question.

that said, the big kites are jsut too slow to throw around the sky.

and i'd disagree with you on turning speed being important in big kites, it is if you need a fast turning kite to generate the power, but if the kite just sits at the edge of the window and pulls like a truck and never falls in lulls then turning speed doesnt matter.

it totally depends on what you want from the kite.


that said i firmly believe that for the requirments of comps, leis are streets ahead based on judging criteria driven by style. but if we had upwind comps i'd be reaching for the foil and square board.

[cyclone]

that said, the big kites are jsut too slow to throw around the sky.

and i'd disagree with you on turning speed being important in big kites, it is if you need a fast turning kite to generate the power, but if the kite just sits at the edge of the window and pulls like a truck and never falls in lulls then turning speed doesnt matter.

What? Doesnt matter for just cruising maybe....

Big kites that dont turn are DOGS! What kind of fun will you have on a big kite that doesnt turn? There is soooo much discussion about this its not funny... EVERYONE wants their big kites to turn faster!

I had a G-ARC 13m and it too was slow to turn...

Dont get me wrong here though, im not here to bash foils... i bash everything that i feel deserves it... remember my v4 review before it was lost in the site crash???

[not annonymous]

Big kites that dont turn are DOGS! What kind of fun will you have on a big kite that doesnt turn? There is soooo much discussion about this its not funny... EVERYONE wants their big kites to turn faster!

I had a G-ARC 13m and it too was slow to turn...

Dont get me wrong here though, im not here to bash foils... i bash everything that i feel deserves it... remember my v4 review before it was lost in the site crash???

The psycho 15.5 is not like that at all. It IS kind of a slow pig to turn, but it works like this:

To jump high you don't have to whip the kite back hard. You just bring the kite to 12:00 and sheet in. Up you go. Of course the faster you do it the better you jump with the psycho, but it doesn't need anywhere near the same kind of turning speed that the LEI's I have tried need to jump well.

Sining the kite when underpowered: With the psycho you never have to sine the kite. So turning speed is not a concern in underpowered conditions or when you want to accellerate quickly. You actually pump the bar the same way you would pump a big poleboard sail. When you sheet in the kite develops a strong pull, slightly more downwind and you accelerate. Then when you sheet out the kite accelerates forward in the window with more apparent wind and thus more power.

Basically the psycho flys similarly but in the end it performs very differently from all of the other kites I have tried. I happen to like it very much and so I stick with it, even though it does have its disadvantages.

Having said that, after trying a number of 2003 and 2004 LEIs, including 12 and 17 Nitro, 19 slingshot, a 16 RRD and a 14 skoop, all of the new kites I have tried have very much fixed all of the problems I had with the older LEIs. These kites responded to my input quickly and directly, did not luff very easily, and had a fairly good depower range.

The main thing I hated about old LEI kites was the "floppyness" and the delay when I turned the bar. The newer lei kites don't seem to suffer much, if at all, from this problem. Except for the special things that the psycho can do, the newer LEIs i've tried all handle pretty much like the psycho but with faster turning (in addition to the differences in performance peculiar to the model).

So as you see if you have followed these threads and looked at all the arguments, it is very much like with kiteboard design. Everything is a compromise. Take your G-arc out in some super gusty, turbulent wind and compare the performance with your current favorite LEI and you will probably see what I mean.

As far as I can tell pretty much all of the kites on the market now are "good" but all excell in some areas and have disadvantages in other areas. LEI kites in general maybe have evened out the highs and lows more than the foils and perhaps this explains their popularity. In the end the best choice for the individual rider is going to come down to rider preference and intended use.

Trent

[cyclone]

The psycho 15.5 is not like that at all. It IS kind of a slow pig to turn, but it works like this:

To jump high you don't have to whip the kite back hard. You just bring the kite to 12:00 and sheet in. Up you go. Of course the faster you do it the better you jump with the psycho, but it doesn't need anywhere near the same kind of turning speed that the LEI's I have tried need to jump well.

Sining the kite when underpowered: With the psycho you never have to sine the kite. So turning speed is not a concern in underpowered conditions or when you want to accellerate quickly. You actually pump the bar the same way you would pump a big poleboard sail. When you sheet in the kite develops a strong pull, slightly more downwind and you accelerate. Then when you sheet out the kite accelerates forward in the window with more apparent wind and thus more power.

Trent

I UNDERSTAND THAT!!!
But there is heaps of other stuff you need a fast turing kite for...which LEI riders know about but foil riders dont...because their foils dont permit them to do it...

WHY buy a slow turning kite when you can buy a fast turning kite (big kite)???

[Cortex]

I just want to point out one small issue here; why are we comparing the newest LEI's with an "old" foil as the Psycho? The Titan 15.5 is for instance much faster turning than the Pycho 15.5 and also compared to all other 20 sqm LEI (which produce comparable low-wind performance). If you trim the Titan 15.5 for turningspeed I'd strech as far as saying that it is *fast* for such a big kite, LEI of foil.
If we go down in sizes and look at smaller kites I'm pretty sure that the Voodoo 10 will out-turn a lot of new LEI 12-13's. I know for sure that the Voodoo 10 is faster than my Naish X3 12. Also kiteloops shouldn't be a problem with the Voodoo, I'm not good enough to try this yet myself but the turningspeed needed is clearly found in the Voodoo.

So if we are going to compare foils to LEI (which is really pointless anyway, I use both and will continue to do so. If you only stick to either LEI or foil you'll be missing a whole lot of fun.) could we then try to comparing new LEI's to new foils?
Otherwise we could as well compare a Voodoo with a 2001 LEI...

Just my two cents.

[Nukin]

Good post Cortex. You have to compare apples to apples. I have a titan
18M and yes it turns slow, but it is comparable in windrange to a 20-25M lEI and those turn pretty slow as well. When you get on the smaller size foils (titan 9m and 7m) they almost turn too fast - sometimes I wish I could slow them down. The Voodoo looks interesting based on shorter lines and less bridals.
The voodoo should really level the playing field, but I think it is the Psycho 2 that is going to dominate if Armin can tune is so the "average joe" can use it comfortably.

[BLOWN AWAY]

This thread is really cracking me up now .

Horses for courses don't they say? Depends what you want... Sometimes slow kites are good, sometimes fast kites are good. Slow kites definately have their advantages when it's really windy but as this thread is turning into a lightwind big kite debate I will throw in my 2 cents. The new high AR LEI's definately turn quicker than the old ones in the big sizes but they also work best in higher winds too. For lightwind performance I still can't find anything to beat my 20 AERO.. a kite that turns slow compared to todays high AR LEI kites. In saying this I never have any problems with this as it the sweetest kite for pulling tricks in when lit... for no handed moves the only thing that would probably be better is a non luffing kite like the Peter Lynn G ARC.

And if it's kiteloops your after... I've got that avenue covered too... just get the 8.5 C Quad out and then proceed to do the easiest kiteloops I could ever dream of, piece of cake... a 12.5m C Quad perhaps?? Never tried one but considering that the 8.5 turns miles quicker than my 8m AERO II (on the AEROs fast turning setting I mite add) I would still back myself to say that it'd be piss easy with this kite too. Remembering that the 12.5m C Quad would have the power of at least a 25m LEI kite I'd go as far to say that it's the ultimate kiteloopin light wind kite...... soooooooo if that's the case then, why aren't C Quads dominating the first 50 places at kiteboarding comps worldwide if that's all the pros want in a big kite???? Simple.....

[cyclone]

Exactly... why?

LEI are better for compettition riding, thats why...

If north naish slingshot etc thought there was merit in the foil design they would develop it WOULDNT THEY? Money for them isnt an issue, they could employ the best aeronautical engineers out there and they already have the best riders in the world to help with development.

They dont because they dont believe in the idea... and rightly so IMHO becasue ive owned foils and LEI and know the merits of both...