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fokiten
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Postby fokiten » Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:08 am

John Holzhall wrote:
Wow...where do I start...lets start with the fact that Naish does make and sell MLL...so does Cabrinha...guys like Franz Orly, Lou waiman, Bertran, Jessy Richmond and Don Montigue have used them for years...compared to you they maybe industry light weights, but I still look up to them.
As for Rick, i'm not ragging on him, I consider him a friend and a good guy, but why can't I state a fact that no one on his list was on lines shorter than 20s...guys use them all the time, what do you think we ride waves on?
Guys like Paul Mentan have taught with short lines (15m and under) for years...I just think Rick could do wonders for the sport by promoting MLL...as far as me pimping...all you need is a knife and some line to make MLL...Paul Menta just double lines back...it's easy and beats getting the beach banned...Florida is going off right now...you guys say people have to ride 28s...stupid... Saying a 10 is the same on 16meter lines as 28s...deadly
sorry I called you a pussy, it's just really important to put your name on the kind of advice you give...it's all MODERN KITEBOARDING HISTORY

MO


Regards,

John, you are absolutely transparent.

I think: you'd like to hook everyone up to a kite.

You'd love to say it's safe now, I fixed it.

John, some very skilled kiters have died, some have suffered crippling- life changing injuries.

Kiting is not a thing to take lightly.

AND

No one flies short lines unless they have to, to survive in conditions no one would call casual.

Yet, I think you'd like to sell kiting as a casual sport, one that's now safe for the whole family.

Say yeah, I fixed it, it's all better now, it's wholesome simple recreation and by so doing justify trying to put everyone on a kite.

John,, be honest with yourself.


Thanks
fokiten

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Mr Jo Macdonald
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Postby Mr Jo Macdonald » Sat Aug 27, 2005 10:56 am

Hi John, I totally agree that short lines are great, for wave riding they're the tops. I also agree that there is a lot of bad advice around, but things aren't as simple as "short lines" or "miracle hype kite" imo.

Anyway on the subject of bad advice, I still don't get this:
phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=2317397&highlight=hook
What goes?

Forget the flaming, I'm not interested in that.
I would really like to know if you think the above is good advice, and if so it would be great if you could explain why because to me it seems really bad and potentially deadly.

I see you didn't answer that thread, maybe you missed it. Hopefully you'll see it here and consider answering because imo it is important what we pass on to people, especially if it's written as many people could take that advice also in the future.
All the best
Mac

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selassie
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Postby selassie » Sat Aug 27, 2005 11:16 am

WTF are you talking about eveyone uses short lines for wave riding?

Nobody uses short lines for waves or anything else except maybe pussd-out kiteloops.

kites with short lines dont fly as good and they arent as fun

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Postby waveslave » Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:21 pm

I don't like short lines even though I kite waves only.

I use smallish kites in the waves and I really work the weapon. Get a sweat up.

But it's the run out after the waveride that I probably enjoy the most.

For big boosts off waves, 27m lines are needed to power spike the smallish kite.

Kitesurfing in surf is a 2-way street.

Regards
'slave

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Postby stoner » Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:57 pm

fokiten wrote: John, you are absolutely transparent.
[...]

I think you'd like to sell kiting as a casual sport, one that's now safe for the whole family.

Say yeah, I fixed it, it's all better now, it's wholesome simple recreation and by so doing justify trying to put everyone on a kite.

John,, be honest with yourself.


Thanks
fokiten
:lol::lol::lol: Another one for the collection.

Not safe enough for the whole family? :lol: Why not fo? :D
Two days ago it was safe enough for your buddy who needs to become more active for his health's sake.
:lol::lol::lol:

... sorry, got distracted there ... :D

Doesn't everyone have MLL's in their quiver? I have 20's with extensions (5's, 7's, 10's) It's a quick way to fine tune the session or set up stack slots. Maybe it's just an arcuser thing ;).

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screven
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Postby screven » Tue Aug 30, 2005 5:22 pm

MOSES wrote:
screven wrote: 35-40m lines are a massive advantage in really light wind.

Chris
Chris-

True, they offer a bit more advantage, I wouldnt go so far as to say "massive" though.
Truth is, "really light wind" sucks no matter what you are flying. (unless its a blimp)

John??
Still there bud?
I kinda feel bad for ya, have to say I haven't seen a beat down like this since Rodney King. :wink:

Get off the short bus and fly a smaller kite !!!

MO
For you maybe. I personally love light wind riding as well as powered up riding. It's kind of a Zen thing. Almost everywhere I have been I see riders out there barely able to get going, much less up wind, while those of us with flat boards and long lines are ripping up wind.

For the kites I fly the long lines do make a big difference. Maybe "massive" is a bit of an overstatement. I was just out this weekend with a good up wind rider who had a 19m Venom and I was able to stay up wind better with my 16m Venom and longer lines.

Chris

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Postby fernmanus » Tue Aug 30, 2005 5:42 pm

This post is petering out - it was a lot more fun when everyone stayed on topic. That is ripping John H. a new one for having the audacity to state that no lives have been lost on 20M lines.

Maui is a lousy place to learn to kite. The wind is strong and gusty. The beach reserved for learning (at kite beach) is narrow and there is not much room to go downwind. There are far better places to learn. Belmont Shores, S. Padre Island, Hatteras - all are far better. Learn where the wind is light and then head to Maui or the Gorge when you can handle high wind conditions.

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Postby John Holzhall » Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:25 am

Anyway on the subject of bad advice, I still don't get this:
phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=2317397&highlight=hook
What goes?
it would be great if you could explain why because to me it seems really bad and potentially deadly.

Ya, if you radically decrease your AOA you will have less power...i'm not sure if you have ever been in a mechanical lift situation (lofting) but when it happens to me I either activate my harness loop release or if I want to ride it out, I 1st grab the powerstrap, then pull in...I get about 50% depower and if it is still too much, I pull in (the whole thing) more and that releases my harness line...not sure where the confusion is...basically all Flatter Arc kites (cross bow)operate similarly...additionally, the bars we make for the Hawaiian Kite Canoes have an additional harness loop built into the power strap so we can hook in it, launch a really big kite in strong wind, walk over to the canoe and shackel the trimstrap onto the canoe...from my experience, it's considerable depower...
but I also ride a ten meter kite on 16, 20, or 24 meter lines depending on the wind...I guess i'm breaking some law by getting more range out of my small kite...oh well...jh
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Mr Jo Macdonald
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Postby Mr Jo Macdonald » Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:57 pm

Hi John
Thanks for that.
Yeah I always use 20m lines on all kites 13 and smaller, 15 and 18: 25m on a pulley bar. I tried shorter on the bigger kites but in low wind found the window was too small for my liking. Imo shorter lines on medium to small kites give you much more control, and no less power, or jumping once you get it sussed. I also agree an underpowered kite on short lines and a big board is much better for learning on.

On the trim strap question.
Ok, I can see why you might need extra sheeting on a really big kite like one used to pull a canoe, say 40cm instead of 20, so a double trim strap would be a good idea.
What I don't understand is how a normal sized kite maxed out to the point it's teabagging you can be safer if you hook into the trim strap. Aren't the back lines so slack you get no steering? And how can you release yourself from the kite if you've hooked out of the QR chicken and into the trim strap which has no safety mechanism?

On the question of lofting. I've been lofted twice, once 3 years ago in 8-16 knots on a 16m lei, once 2 years ago in 6 knots on a 12m foil (both windspeads measured at ground level, must have been more higher, with wierd updrafts the second time.
The second time I handled it better because I treated it like a jump so avoided the second horrizontal loft. I haven't been lofted since, because I've learnt how to avoid it and kill the potential power by slackening the lines, launch seawards, etc. but I always expect it.
Mac
John Holzhall wrote:Anyway on the subject of bad advice, I still don't get this:
phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=2317397&highlight=hook
What goes?
it would be great if you could explain why because to me it seems really bad and potentially deadly.

Ya, if you radically decrease your AOA you will have less power...i'm not sure if you have ever been in a mechanical lift situation (lofting) but when it happens to me I either activate my harness loop release or if I want to ride it out, I 1st grab the powerstrap, then pull in...I get about 50% depower and if it is still too much, I pull in (the whole thing) more and that releases my harness line...not sure where the confusion is...basically all Flatter Arc kites (cross bow)operate similarly...additionally, the bars we make for the Hawaiian Kite Canoes have an additional harness loop built into the power strap so we can hook in it, launch a really big kite in strong wind, walk over to the canoe and shackel the trimstrap onto the canoe...from my experience, it's considerable depower...
but I also ride a ten meter kite on 16, 20, or 24 meter lines depending on the wind...I guess i'm breaking some law by getting more range out of my small kite...oh well...jh

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Postby John Holzhall » Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:02 pm

ya, it is no fun...as far as the trim strap chicken loop...probably easiest to look at the older Naish system where you get depower by unhooking...same concept...jh


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