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Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 6:11 am
by The Jess-Man
vide wrote:Are you serious jess-man? If so, you are pretty ignorant or uninformed.
Let's do that then. Let's do a little informing. Just for you bud.
vide wrote: People were debating foils V's inflatables on fourms online 7 years ago. Back then, there were probably more foils than inflatables. It seemd at times that foils might have a chance. While they are good on land, I have never once seen a foil on the water that looked like it would offer a good experience. Foil die hard cruisers may disagree.
Back in the day when this sport was getting started people were using both inflatables and foils. But it wasn't hard to see that inflatables were far superior to foils for water relaunching. So naturally more and more people began to fly inflatables in those early days.
vide wrote:Inflatables are rigid. thats why they turn so directly and have so much stability. Flying a crossbow is nothing like flying a parachute.
When's the last time you've flown a foil on water?
vide wrote: The innovation in the crossbow is that it has all the benefits of an inflatable, but in a more powerful design for size, with unlimited top end.

The C concept is still part of the bow design. The very simple bridle provides the same c shape of a C kite. The ktie sits above that and can be flatter. The front conenction points are further forward, and that combined with a flatter wing than can pivot without distorting the kite shape gives you the Bow.

It nothing like a foil.
Actually when's the last time you have ever flown any foil. Period. What you just described is exactly how a foil flys.

Haven't you ever wondered why they came up with the flat kite? You never thought about it did you?

Have a little peek at the selection chart from Cabrinha'a own web site while I explain this to you. It's kind of a Glass half empty half full explanation.

Most people will look at the Bow kite as like you said your self; "The very simple bridle provides the same c shape of a C kite. The ktie sits above that and can be flatter. "

ALL THEY DID WAS CHOP THE TIPS OFF!!!. Obviously there was some tweaking but this is basically what they did. (But if you look at a Psycho2 or an Extacy from Fly Furfer, a bow is relatively the same shape. Flat mid section, curved tips, swept back wing.)

That's why you can go out on your 12m Bow when other guys are on there, oh I don't know... maybe a 16m C Kites. There is no lift generated from the tips of your C kite. Cabrinha knows this. Takoon knows this. Every one knows this. So why do we tips on our C's? Simple. To make the kites simpler so no bridle is needed.

Just remember when your flying your expensive Bow and every one else is flying bigger C's. It's cause the kite your flying is the same size but they ripped you off and didin't sell you the tips. :P

vide wrote: I actually think there will be more C kites being used in 6-12 months. But the more important question is what will most new kite sales be in 6-12 months? I bet Bows.
I'll take that bet. I'm saying C's with total 100% Depower. Why go to all the trouble of a Bridle system when it's not nessessary.
vide wrote: The current crossbow already offer more range and power control for water use than any other kite that has existed before, c kite, foil or otherwise.
I hate to say this; but before the HELLFISH were blowing up it was awsome. And it had a huge range of power. Now unfortunatly they had there problems. But I'll make another bet and say that when they rerelease the 2006's ... It's not going to happen again.

I gotta tell you a little story before I get to your next quote.

A buddy of mine is really into Golf. He just went and bought himself a new set of PINGS before the summer. The guy fitting him up asked to see his swing. So my buddy showed him. And the guys say's "Great;" and goes about setting up my clubs for him.

My buddy asks if there is anything he should change in his swing for these new clubs and the guy reply's, "No. You've been golfin more then 10 years. Your swing works well for you. Why shold you buy a new set of clubs that makes you change how you are comfortable swinging?"

So the guy sets up my buddies clubs to suit him so he can keep doing what he does best.

vide wrote: Some pros dont like it, because they have to learn how to get the most out of it before they can confidently pull the tricks they are pulling with their current kites. But that will change.
So now you tell me again why you think Pro's are going to jump on the Bow bandwagon? Why should they have to re-learn how to do all there tricks on Bows when they have something that already works well for them? And before you refer me the the audio of Andre Phillip talking to Pete Cabrinha about how great the Switchblade was, why don't you have another listen and here the excitment in nhis voice about the new kite. Makes me want to buy it. :-?

vide wrote: 2006 will be the year of waves, and the year of the bow. No doubt...
They'll have there moment ther is no doubt about that. There moment is here it's now; everyones buzing about them. But I'll say by mid 2006 Total depowerable C shape kites will be all the rage due to there simplicity. And if not the C then the Foil will surely take there place come 2007.

Anyone flying a Bow or considering buying one should really go for a rip on a foil kite. Rememeber these Bows have only been around for short period of time. Not even an entire season. There is alot more R&D that has gone into foil development. Cabrinha has 2 different kind of Bows. Flysurfer has 4 different kinds of Foils. Each with very different shapes which have been around multiple generations.

Bows and Foils have many similarities in there flying style. If you are going to ride a Bow save your self the time on the beach and go ride a foil.

The Jess-Man

Oh and vide... :thumb:

Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 6:45 am
by MonkeyAir
"Are you serious jess-man? If so, you are pretty ignorant or uninformed. "
"I have never once seen a foil on the water that looked like it would offer a good experience. Foil die hard cruisers may disagree." "????

Guess I better then.
Insulting someone and having not one shred of correct info is not good form. Not all foil flyers are cruisers and there are far more cruisers on leis..Do the math. Come back when you have actually spent time on, taught on and flew each kite, in low crappy conditions/high wind and super gust, and are surrounded by open minded friends who do the same. You could not be more wrong. If you had seen the tests in SanDiego of light wind kites or flew in crazy high wind and gusty conditions, none of that would be in your post.
We use, fly, sell and teach on Bow kites, PL Venoms (best for teaching/doing it 8 years and yes there are other schools teaching on them), C Leis and Flysurfer.
My guess would be 40 percent on bows in a year and a half. As the above poster demonstrated, some lemmings won't try something as radically different as a new model PL or other foil. :lol: Need a colon full of advertising and peer group to tell them who is ok to hang with in the lunch area in high school and what to fly on the beach....Sad...No balls and no independent thinking. Conform or be shut out!!! Luckily we deal with some cool brands who realize lots of kites work very well and kiters can be independent thinkers. They don't mind us mixing brands and styles. You really owe Jess an apology bud. :o

Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:28 am
by vide



If you had spent any real time at all riding a Bow, you wouldn't be making statements that you are. They are RIGID. A foil is not. That means that if the airflow is disrupted evern a few seconds a foil can turn to jelly. A bow will drift about in the window but retain its shape, AR etc.. And the spongy feel that people compain about on the bow is SPONGE CAKE on even a good foil.

The foil V's LEI debate was boring 5 years ago. And its still boring now. Sure... things have changed, but they haven't really. Apparently the 'Superior' characterisitcs of foils meant that they were going to take over the world 'one day' 5 years ago. But we both know that that hasn't happened. For reasons beyond water relaunching. Foils have made huge advancements, but so have LEI's and LEI's have maintained their lead in performance for competitive kitesurfing, while massively increasing their lead as a percentage of total kite sales.

Why do Naish, Cabrinha, Norht not make foils if they are so advanced? When they are probably much cheaper to make with more margin???

Why did F-One start making LEI's, and pull the pin on foils? Imagine how much more succesful the real pioneers like Flexifoil would be if they had embraced LEI's sooner... Instead of whipping a dead horse about how great their foils were?

And all this marketing and hype that people go on and whinge about is crap... I really don't think people are influenced by mags and glossy ads any where as much as they are by a visit to their local beach or this forum... Where they can talk to real kitesurfers and then make up their own mind. Give the average kitesurfer more credit.

Anyway, the point was that Bows are rigid, and foils are not. They need consistent airflow to create any stability in their shape whatsover, and the lack of rigidity leads to lack of direct, snappy response. Look at what is happening with battens in LEI's cams in windsurf sails etc.

I have ridden a few foils in my time, but admitedly not for a while...

Each to their own. If you like foils good for you. Go and have fun. But stating that if you want a Bow you might as well have a foil is a pretty misleading an uniformed statement.

Its personal choice. Not one thing about a foil appeals to me, but everything about a Bow does...

And I reckon more Crossbows are on back order right now that all the kitesurfing foils sold world wide in the past 12 months. And don't tell me all these purchasers are stupid sheep. Thats a pretty arrogant and dismissive line of thought.

Anyway, our bets are on and we are putting our money where our mouths are. I have 'invested' in my Bows, and I reckon they will be worth more in 6 months than any other new kite on the market right now.

I wonder how 2nd hand C kites and foils will stand up in comparison in 6 months?

We will see...

Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:22 am
by MonkeyAir
I laugh as the exact same brainless negativity is being applied to bows as was used to bash foils on the beaches locally. Haven't used and don't know. It is ok to have an opinion out of experience but this is just parroting what someone told them to say. As their favorite manufacture bring one out, the bagging stops. Same thing with big wave paddle in surfers when they saw the first tow in guys.. Those guys suck and are !@##$ies... Then suddenly it was cool when they started doing it.
"Why do Naish, Cabrinha, Norht not make foils if they are so advanced? "
Pete Cabrina sat on our beach and watched us fly proto arcs in the G days. He was very interested and asked me many questions at length on the phone about them. He thought they had great light wind potential and thought they seemed to handle gusts very well.. He is open minded and saw the potential. Unfortunately market share dictates what is built would be my guess as to why he did not pursue them. Bridles have just become "OK" with the public do to Bow kites and I would predict foils will be more accepted for this reason. Bow kite is just an extension of a foil anyway with some problems of leis mixed in with the one advantage of a stiff leading edge. This is only an advantage if you have enough wind to keep it up in lulls though. Who in the heck would want to pump if they did not want to. My venoms are very stiff in structure without bladders. I wish the largest was stiffer for my personal tastes but the 10 and 13 are fantastic with the 16, pretty stinking stiff but still soft enough to absorb gusts... as a stiff kite CAN NOT..
"When they are probably much cheaper to make with more margin??? "
The opposite has always been true and the anwer to your other questions. Huge margin and all designers had to chase the money. It is a business after all. A local flexi retaler was calling our foil kites dangerous as they could water realaunch and who would want that...Then the Wipi came out and relaunch kites were the only way to go...What a bunch of crud. More designers pushing the lei envelope which is not much different that the orignal L design of high and low aspect of the day with the same software to all companies builiding them. Foils have a much larger possiblity of designs. The bow has given new life to the Sea Smick and thank goodness lei's. A lei is just a single surface with a few fold overs for bladders. Much more labor intesive to make a closed cell foil. Try some new foils and then see. You are talking without testing. Sheep is the truth and not arogant in saying. People fly what the hot locals tell them to fly. Same in most sports as humans are humans. The hot locals are generally shop riders or are at least getting a free rashguard with a logo to put over their wet suit. Simple and it works everywhere and has been discussed on the group. Allways has been heaps more profit in shops selling leis. I know cause I sold the first AR5's in Ca. Keystone pluss is what shops were getting. Lightyears ahead of what a good water relaunch foil could get. The blade was the last of the huge profit ram airs out there for shops.
Old story and boring. Nothing to do with quality of flight of current foils (throwing arcs in there). Why did everyone go chasing the big gas guzzling SUV in the USA though it was impractiacal and bad for the environment?? Cause it was cool!!! Cool people on TV drove them!! Idiots!! Logic does not make the rules. Money and sellers (sponsored riders at each beach) do. GM is eating it for this sort of ignorance in the car world. Serves them right. No such response in the kite world unfortunately. Thank goodness for bows as at least those that only know leis will at least have some safety and stability and still feel cool using them with their shop buds on the beach. I like my bow kite.
It was a question of percent of bows and bows have done good things for foils and leis in opening minds.

Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:39 am
by Shirtswapper
What a load off waffle. Some people have too much time on their hands. My vote goes to BOW kites. Will they last? Who knows but shit they're good. Just ride whatever you like and stop trying to convince people that your kite is superior. The more variety the better!

My 2 cents

Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:53 am
by Lolo
I certainly bet on the Bows.

The efficient design, the depowering features lead to the possibility to have just one kite and one board, more safety and more control. If the prices will go slightly down (comparable to C-kites) and the current technical problems will be solved in the next years, there is simply no reason to not believe they will dominate the market.

The aerodynamic structure of C-kites is just a conceptual constraint to the improvement. They will probably get better and better, but the relative improvement of C-kites will be smaller than the one of Bows.

Again, a company who stays out of the development stream gets a big risk on medium term/long investment. But probably we need a couple of years to see the Bows coming out seriously.

Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:19 am
by Rockstar
Does it really matter ?

Where are all the many C kites going to dissapear to ? The rubbish bin?
I dont think so !

I really like Bow kites,but I dont care if many other people use them or not.

If you are happy with a classic kite,then enjoy it,dont bash the bows,or them that use them.

If you like Bows,go for it. Trust your own judgement. You dont need acceptance by the masses to make it legitimate.

Most importantly,dont claim that Bows make c kites obsolete. Its not true,and only upsets some people that either prefer C kites,or have just invested in some.

Its like foils. I dont personally like them.I prefer inflatos.
But I have enormous respect for those that fly them.I feel you have to be skilled to fly them.I would be afraid of dropping it. Also,foil fliers are confident in their choice,and dont bother that everyone else is not flying them.

Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:37 pm
by Wolfgang
Toby, you should add...

- 06 most bought kite type

- 07 most bought kite type

- 07 most used kite type

The Bow trend has just started, will take some time until Bows are mainstream...

Also... there will be C-Bows... or hybrids.. or moderate Bows... like GK Sonic... or maybe CB Swithblade... and whatever... maybe that's the way to go... avoiding the extremes... combining the strengths of both...

Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 3:13 pm
by jason_ssr
This really shouldnt be a debate. A kite is a kite. The style of kite you buy is only going to hinge on two things:

1. How much do you want to spend?

2. What style of riding do you do?

A C kite isnt better than a bow, and a bow isnt better than a C. They are two different feels, and people will choose what feels good to them.

Its funny how you guys see equipment designs as something pushing the sport. It isnt. The bow is not an "innovation", it is just another kite. It still just pulls you along the water....thats it. You want to know what pushes a sport? YOUTH! the more youth a sport has in it the more it grows. Windsurfing has died because there is no youth movement within it.

What keeps the youth out? Is it unavailability of a punch out? Is it risky gust management? Is it lack of floatiness? Is it the need of 200% depower? Is it complicated bridles?

NO! It is cost...sustainable cost. The only innovation in our sport the past couple of years has been the cut in cost. Companies like Windwing, BEST, Wipika, and now to some extent Airrush, are REALLY the ones doing anything productive for the sport. Kite shape is such a moot point that I cant believe anyone even notices or cares.

Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:52 pm
by The Jess-Man
vide wrote::o
And don't tell me all these purchasers are stupid sheep. Thats a pretty arrogant and dismissive line of thought.
Those are your words not mine. Don't put words in my mouth.