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Hansen MS Monostrut Hybrid

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Hansen Design
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Postby Hansen Design » Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:02 pm

Carkeek Craig, aahi, Aram and many others:
Thanks for the kind words and encouragement.
Frank Rosin wrote:Was done before by Windtools on the Booster. It must have been back in ...2002.
Was working not too bad, at least in the main size.
Basicly they just replaced the struts by long battens.
Frank:
I had the pleasure of flying the Booster protos in 2000-2001 in Sri Lanka during their development. I liked the idea then and still do. Wrapping the battens more around the LE and adding more canopy profile would have made them better. Unfortunately, the market didn't take to kites that roll up and store like windsurfing sails and the Booster wasn't sufficiently superior in performance to justify it
Gigi wrote:M2C you can't get "perfect shape w/o canopy support, at least the one with best LE/TE matching. With one strut (if we forget full canopy width battens) you'll always get bulky TE. The effect is visible on your design. And I think that's hard to minimize with skin pre-tensioning. You can probably smooth this out w/o using any struts at all, but then again LE/TE looks could be much different than wanted design... And it might be more prone to fluttering & structure deformations.
Gigi:
I love the word 'can't' because it sharpen's my concentration and focus. FYI, the canopy is not 'bulky' and it follows the leading edge almost perfect. The billow you see is partially a matter of perspective in the pics and partially due to the fact that we 'tucked' the center strut to add profile and it is drooping below the LE because of this. In the concept stage, I presumed the center strut would fly up leaving a 'C'-like TE profile so I placed 4 additional attachment points along it figuring I would have to bridle it. It never did need bridling much to my and most other's surprise. After 2-3 weeks of re-cuts and adjustments, it still requires no bridle support and even remains below the LE. So, the lesson here is that one learns by doing and in future versions I see no problem with what I first thought I couldn't do. We could probably re-tension the canopy or unkink the center strut on the proto to clean it up but it is working so well and the kite is getting so needle-weary that we decided to stop hacking and move on. As an aside, it could just be that the slight dihedral at the center strut may be adding stability similar to the keel on a hang glider and is actually a good thing. Good luck with your flat-panel faceted kite project. It looks interesting.
Stefan wrote:Bill, do you think seam placement and correct fabric could overcome need for fiberglass battens in this kite-given what is available to you in the current market? Is there a fabric you would use but is too expensive to make it practical.
Stefan:
I think a similar outline with 3 struts and yes, more advanced fabrics might be able to minimize the batten quantity. The more basic problem is that flat, high projected kites like the monostrut cannot rely on coning (funneling) to inflate and pressurize the canopy as in a 'C' or most present SLE designs. That is because you need a fairly cylindrical frontal geometry with a shorter TE than LE to 'trap' the flow and pressurize the canopy. In a flat wing, a shorter TE only adds sweep. Coning makes for a beautiful, clean canopy but ultimately results in hanging back in the window in light winds, sluggish upturns and lower upwind VMG's. Today's typical SLE kites are much better than past kites but you can still see coning in most of them. One goal of the Monostrut besides simplicity is to reduce the drag from coning.

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Postby BWD » Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:16 am

Amen on the coning. Although it does seem to help many kites with drift. Even "bad' things can be useful.
Thanks for all the pics. :thumb:

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Postby knyfe » Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:07 am

with 3 struts you finally reached the Eclipse Nano, or not?

Hansen Design
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Postby Hansen Design » Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:48 am

knyfe wrote:with 3 struts you finally reached the Eclipse Nano, or not?
Knyfe:
The Nano has a different outline, much lower PA% and a pulley bridle. From what I have seen, it is a very good kite but rather conventional. With the Monostrut, we are combining what so far have proven to be exclusionary features in the market: high PA% and simplicity. It is true that making it a tri-strut with lower PA% to eliminate battens moves it toward the Nano but it would be a significant moderation and less interesting project.

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Postby Gigi;) » Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:28 am

:D Yes, and that's why we're doing it!

THX for your comments! Yes, it's hard to see TE if pic is not lined with the kite.

I've proposed to my friend to build a copy of your kite with 3 struts, but he's not certain of what he'll build when he saw DeltaS design. Maybe he can comment, since I know that he's watching this thread... :)
Hansen Aerosports wrote:
Gigi wrote:M2C you can't get "perfect shape w/o canopy support, at least the one with best LE/TE matching. With one strut (if we forget full canopy width battens) you'll always get bulky TE. The effect is visible on your design. And I think that's hard to minimize with skin pre-tensioning. You can probably smooth this out w/o using any struts at all, but then again LE/TE looks could be much different than wanted design... And it might be more prone to fluttering & structure deformations.
Gigi:
I love the word 'can't' because it sharpen's my concentration and focus. FYI, the canopy is not 'bulky' and it follows the leading edge almost perfect. The billow you see is partially a matter of perspective in the pics and partially due to the fact that we 'tucked' the center strut to add profile and it is drooping below the LE because of this. In the concept stage, I presumed the center strut would fly up leaving a 'C'-like TE profile so I placed 4 additional attachment points along it figuring I would have to bridle it. It never did need bridling much to my and most other's surprise. After 2-3 weeks of re-cuts and adjustments, it still requires no bridle support and even remains below the LE. So, the lesson here is that one learns by doing and in future versions I see no problem with what I first thought I couldn't do. We could probably re-tension the canopy or unkink the center strut on the proto to clean it up but it is working so well and the kite is getting so needle-weary that we decided to stop hacking and move on. As an aside, it could just be that the slight dihedral at the center strut may be adding stability similar to the keel on a hang glider and is actually a good thing. Good luck with your flat-panel faceted kite project. It looks interesting.

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Postby John B » Thu Sep 27, 2007 5:53 pm

THE POWER STROKE:
This is in response to some speculative assumptions back on pg.6

I was out flying the Mono 8.5 at the Hatchery the other day in winds 14-18mph, which are the “low-endâ€Â

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Postby scklandl » Thu Sep 27, 2007 7:11 pm

All I gotta say is BRAVO!!!

I might just have to start making my own kites if you guys make it any simpler.

I love the simplicity (albeit with a bridle) but if the pulleys stay off of it it could really be a marvelous critter

anxiously awaiting your next development!

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Postby tautologies » Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:28 pm

scklandl wrote:All I gotta say is BRAVO!!!

I might just have to start making my own kites if you guys make it any simpler.

I love the simplicity (albeit with a bridle) but if the pulleys stay off of it it could really be a marvelous critter

anxiously awaiting your next development!
AGREE!!! Well except for the making my own kites part...if I did they would look like rags on a string...as I have no idea how to operate a sewing machine.

a.

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Postby Mikey » Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:47 am

<snip>

STRUTS:
Struts probably produce the most drag on the “up-strokeâ€Â

Hansen Design
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Postby Hansen Design » Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:06 pm

Mikey wrote:If the stuts are in the plane of the air flow do they really cause that much drag? They weight I get (see Flysurfer S2 vs SA2 comments) wich is a function of pwer per m2, but they airflow? It keeps getting better and better. When are you going to do a 12 or 15 M?
Mikey:
Good question. I assumed (like most others) that if the struts were reasonably aligned, they would not have much effect. But, in the process of testing and modifying this kite, we did add two round-nosed inflatable struts in what seemed to be a normal and proper position about 2/3 distance spanwise towards the wingtip. The kite was much slower in speed and turning and less efficient upwind. Could be that they were improperly shaped/placed. But, the more I thought about it, I came to the conclusion that a truly efficient kite would have minimal struts and a clean, unobstructed canopy. So we removed them and set about working to clean the kite up without additional struts and it eventually paid off. One can build an aerodynamic case both for and against inflatable struts (channeling the flow, improving the profile, structure vs. wetted surface, turbulence and weight.) For this kite, the struts were detrimental. As an aside, in the past with the Rapture I (which was a 5 strut kite,) we got into the practice of cutting off two struts and the kite flew and turned much faster. There was less canopy support causing some backwinding and luffing when de-powered which at least one tester thought was bad. All other's found it to be much better. I believe that there are many good kites with struts and they have their place. I also believe a superior kite can be made without them. It may be a compromise in other ways but it is an area that merits investigation and that is what we are doing. The sport will ultimately benefit either way.

Regarding a 12 & 15 Monostrut, we expect to make something around a 12 which would have the PA of a typical SLE 15. Can't say for sure about anything larger. A decent 11-12sq-m sail will get a windsurfer planing in around 6-7 knots of wind. So, IMHO, an efficient high PA% 12sq-m kite operating with good apparent wind production should do the same.


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