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The Safety Topic: please post your experience and advice!

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kklaus
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Re: The Safety Topic: please post your experience and advice!

Postby kklaus » Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:24 pm

Hi Guys,

I'm Klaus, a student at Deggendorf Institute of Technology in Germany. Together with my fellow student Tom we are currently trying to investigate the topic of safety in kitesurfing.
Tom had a kiting accident last year and broke his leg, which was the occasion for us to investigate the risk of injury in the form of undergraduate research.
Of course we need corresponding data and therefore your help!
You will find under this link https://goo.gl/forms/zybOeMf2LxdwXakb2 a short survey with seven questions on the subject. If you could spend five minutes on the survey, it would be great!

Many Thanks!

Klaus

podiatanapraia
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Re: The Safety Topic: please post your experience and advice!

Postby podiatanapraia » Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:08 pm

podiatanapraia wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:45 am
Hi everyone. I have a question, and if it's been answered here before, I apologize (but there's, like, 28 pages of experience to read through in this topic alone).

I was out today with a 14m kite in strong winds. Great for hangitme, but a lot of power to hold. At one point the kite hit the water during a kite loop and went into a strange twist and I was forced to use the quick release. I was then able to pull myself towards the kite, untwist the kite, let it drag back out away from me, pull myself towards the bar and reset the chicken loop. Once the safety line had run through again, the kite powered up pretty hard and I hurt my finger in the process. It was nothing serious, but it did get me thinking about something that could have been a lot worse. If I had had the safety line wrapped around any part of me, like a finger or a toe, it might have chopped it right off when the kite powered up.

My question is this: does anyone know of any technique that could be used to guarantee that the safety line won't be wrapped anywhere around you when you hook the chicken loop back in and allow the line to run back through the bar?

Appreciate any thoughts and experiences on the matter.
Anybody?? Any ideas on how to make resetting your bar in the water and relaunching safer??

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Re: The Safety Topic: please post your experience and advice!

Postby knotwindy » Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:34 pm

Maybe when you pull yourself up the safety line to the bar, wrap the safety line around the bar a couple of times so after you reset the qr you can check to make sure the safety is not wrapped anywhere and then unwind it from the bar to let it slide out?

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Re: The Safety Topic: please post your experience and advice!

Postby DietKiter » Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:21 pm

Totally agree with NICO - DO NOT KITE ALONE - and HELP the kiters in case is needed... stop fun for while and check!!!

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Re: The Safety Topic: please post your experience and advice!

Postby FLandOBX » Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:42 pm

podiatanapraia wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:08 pm
podiatanapraia wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:45 am
Hi everyone. I have a question, and if it's been answered here before, I apologize (but there's, like, 28 pages of experience to read through in this topic alone).

I was out today with a 14m kite in strong winds. Great for hangitme, but a lot of power to hold. At one point the kite hit the water during a kite loop and went into a strange twist and I was forced to use the quick release. I was then able to pull myself towards the kite, untwist the kite, let it drag back out away from me, pull myself towards the bar and reset the chicken loop. Once the safety line had run through again, the kite powered up pretty hard and I hurt my finger in the process. It was nothing serious, but it did get me thinking about something that could have been a lot worse. If I had had the safety line wrapped around any part of me, like a finger or a toe, it might have chopped it right off when the kite powered up.

My question is this: does anyone know of any technique that could be used to guarantee that the safety line won't be wrapped anywhere around you when you hook the chicken loop back in and allow the line to run back through the bar?

Appreciate any thoughts and experiences on the matter.
Anybody?? Any ideas on how to make resetting your bar in the water and relaunching safer??
I agree that this is a risk that we need to manage. Resetting the bar and simply letting the kite power up is a recipe for disaster.

When I am in this situation, I hold the last few feet of the safety line behind the bar. The lines will sort themselves out as the kite drifts downwind, but the kite won't fully power up until you release the safety line. This gives me time to check that the lines are clear before fully powering up the kite. In high winds, I recommend holding the safety line at the kite leash attachment point for a better and safer grip.

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The Safety Topic: Launch Prodecures and Accidents

Postby matt-0 kite » Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:35 am

I get no shortage of chances to see people stuffing their launches at my spot. (teaching 15 years, and manage a school with other kiters in the area).

I'd like to point out a very important but often-missed part of a good launch procedure: After moving into position and doing all the other checks-- Just after hooking in (this should be as late in the process as feasible), and just before the 360 degree check:

SHEET OUT all the way to check for depowerability.
SHEET IN all the way to check for 1)power adjust and 2)sufficient & equal tension in the back lines.

In the last couple of weeks I've seen two situations where the kite immediately zinged across the window upon launching, putting the kiter in the air. In one of them the kiter was within a half-second or so of smashing their face on a solid structure (tight launch spot, long lines). In the other, the kiter (former cop) just got angry and yelled at the people around him and blamed the staff from the center he was renting from, even though he was the one that put the people downwind of him in danger. Both happened because of a problem with the back lines that went unnoticed until after the kite left the helper's hands.

Even for experienced kiters, one of those back lines sometimes get wrapped around the tip or there is some other problem with the lines/bridle, and the helper might not notice it. This "back line tension check" is meant to catch those issues before the launch- you'll notice it when you sheet in.

As we say when this kind of thing happens... the cause was NOT that the back line was wrapped around the tip. The cause was that the kiter did not do their pre-launch checks properly :) I see kiters all the time casually getting into place and giving the thumbs up without doing all the careful checks first. Usually, right after the incident they say something like, "This NEVER happens"!

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Last edited by matt-0 kite on Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:40 am, edited 2 times in total.

matt-0 kite
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Re: The Safety Topic: please post your experience and advice!

Postby matt-0 kite » Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:45 am

podiatanapraia wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:08 pm
podiatanapraia wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:45 am
Hi everyone. I have a question, and if it's been answered here before, I apologize (but there's, like, 28 pages of experience to read through in this topic alone).

I was out today with a 14m kite in strong winds. Great for hangitme, but a lot of power to hold. At one point the kite hit the water during a kite loop and went into a strange twist and I was forced to use the quick release. I was then able to pull myself towards the kite, untwist the kite, let it drag back out away from me, pull myself towards the bar and reset the chicken loop. Once the safety line had run through again, the kite powered up pretty hard and I hurt my finger in the process. It was nothing serious, but it did get me thinking about something that could have been a lot worse. If I had had the safety line wrapped around any part of me, like a finger or a toe, it might have chopped it right off when the kite powered up.

My question is this: does anyone know of any technique that could be used to guarantee that the safety line won't be wrapped anywhere around you when you hook the chicken loop back in and allow the line to run back through the bar?

Appreciate any thoughts and experiences on the matter.
Anybody?? Any ideas on how to make resetting your bar in the water and relaunching safer??
I'd say that if you have to pull your quick release and work the whole way to the kite, you might as well finish your self-rescue because chances are pretty low that you'll be able to get everything back nicely into place for a relaunch.

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Re: The Safety Topic: please post your experience and advice!

Postby podiatanapraia » Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:12 pm

matt-0 kite wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:45 am
I'd say that if you have to pull your quick release and work the whole way to the kite, you might as well finish your self-rescue because chances are pretty low that you'll be able to get everything back nicely into place for a relaunch.
Hi Matt,

In my case, it was worth trying. I was in a lagoon with offshore winds. When there's no rescue boat, it's experienced kiters only, and if I hadn't managed to relaunch, I'd have to self rescue all the way to the other end of the lagoon, which is a few km, and then wait for somebody to go pick me up.

Even if you don't need to pull yourself all the way to the kite to straighten things out, though, and just need to get to the bar and reset, the question about how to prevent against having the safety line wrap around you is still valid. I'm hoping to test out a couple of techniques during my next light wind session.

BTW kudos on your pre-launch check post! Just so many people launching badly, and in our crowded beaches here in Rio it can be disastrous! As Toby always points out, this is why we should have one hand on the safety release during launch. Cheers!

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Re: The Safety Topic: please post your experience and advice!

Postby matt-0 kite » Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:04 am

Hi Podiatanapraia,

Well I'm glad you got back OK anyhow. That's a dicey situation. I can't think of any way to guarantee that the safety line won't get wrapped around your finger, or leg, or bar, or spreader bar hook, or neck... or that the other lines won't get wrapped around the kite or bridle if the QR is activated. Please keep updated on the techniques you test out, and your results. This has long been a tricky topic.

To me, floating amongst slack kite lines opens up a lot of possibilities of things going wrong. I usually teach that if you have to pull the QR, just keep the safety line under tension, secure it to the bar, and then as quickly as possible proceed to the kite while trying to manage/wrap the lines neatly.

Were you on a single line flagout (low V) or double line (high V)? How many degrees offshore was the wind and how far were you from the shore? Shallow or deep water?

And about the launch... at the risk of starting another war with posters here, I am going to disagree on something :argue: Although the idea of having one hand ready on the QR when launching has its merits, I prefer to put my bottom hand on the bar immediately after giving the thumbs up.

Why? It's a matter of probabilities and risk management. The most likely hazardous things that can happen on a bad launch are the kite shooting forward, or backstalling, or shooting up toward the zenith and the other side. In each case I prefer to have immediate full two-handed control of the bar to correct the situation early, and then go to the QR if the correction does not work. I'd even go so far as to say that a one-handed launch introduces unnecessary risk because it reduces the control you have over the kite during the moment it leaves the helper's hands.

If the kite shoots up when I launch, I need that bottom hand ready on the bar to pull it right away and get the back down & at the edge of the window, without the extra step of taking my hand off the QR to find the bar. If I still need to open the QR, I can let go of the bar and open it then.

Of course, each person and situation is different. That's just what I do in my location.

Just my thoughts :) Matt-0 vietnam-kitesurf.com

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Re: The Safety Topic: please post your experience and advice!

Postby podiatanapraia » Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:41 pm

matt-0 kite wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:04 am
Hi Podiatanapraia,

Well I'm glad you got back OK anyhow. That's a dicey situation. I can't think of any way to guarantee that the safety line won't get wrapped around your finger, or leg, or bar, or spreader bar hook, or neck... or that the other lines won't get wrapped around the kite or bridle if the QR is activated. Please keep updated on the techniques you test out, and your results. This has long been a tricky topic.

To me, floating amongst slack kite lines opens up a lot of possibilities of things going wrong. I usually teach that if you have to pull the QR, just keep the safety line under tension, secure it to the bar, and then as quickly as possible proceed to the kite while trying to manage/wrap the lines neatly.

Were you on a single line flagout (low V) or double line (high V)? How many degrees offshore was the wind and how far were you from the shore? Shallow or deep water?

And about the launch... at the risk of starting another war with posters here, I am going to disagree on something :argue: Although the idea of having one hand ready on the QR when launching has its merits, I prefer to put my bottom hand on the bar immediately after giving the thumbs up.

Why? It's a matter of probabilities and risk management. The most likely hazardous things that can happen on a bad launch are the kite shooting forward, or backstalling, or shooting up toward the zenith and the other side. In each case I prefer to have immediate full two-handed control of the bar to correct the situation early, and then go to the QR if the correction does not work. I'd even go so far as to say that a one-handed launch introduces unnecessary risk because it reduces the control you have over the kite during the moment it leaves the helper's hands.

If the kite shoots up when I launch, I need that bottom hand ready on the bar to pull it right away and get the back down & at the edge of the window, without the extra step of taking my hand off the QR to find the bar. If I still need to open the QR, I can let go of the bar and open it then.

Of course, each person and situation is different. That's just what I do in my location.

Just my thoughts :) Matt-0 vietnam-kitesurf.com
Hi Matt,

I had the Cabrinha 1x single-line system with a low V, the wind waa exactly perfectly offshore and the water started shallow but got deep just a few meters from shore. By the time I managed to relaunch I must have been some 200 or 300 meters from shore. Was lucky enough to have some kind soul bring me my board after I relaunched, so I didn't have to body drag all the way back.

You'll get no war from me, your arguments on launch procedures make sense, and I'm pretty sure there's no consensus. Just being aware that launching is possibly the most potentially dangerous moment in a session and paying the attention that the procedure merits would be enough to avoid most accidents, and I've seen some bad ones.

If I get the chance to test some ideas on how to avoid getting tangled on the safety line, I'll post the experience here. Cheers!


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