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Back Problem Help... Any Chiropractors here?

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justsomekitingdude
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Re: Back Problem Help... Any Chiropractors here?

Postby justsomekitingdude » Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:06 am

Im in the same boat here .... had a HUGE hit a few weeks ago when kiting. I Jumped, snapped a bridle line, looped the kite and ejected. I hit shallow water from about 7 m up at .. well ... at least 30 + kmh. I have been to the GP twice ... X-ays showe no fractures but my t4 and t5 arent as straight as they should be ... so I went for a CT scan today and am back off to the GP in 5 mins .... Bloody Backs !!

The biggest lesson I leant is DONT jump big in shallow water .... it hits you like concrete :thumb:

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Re: Back Problem Help... Any Chiropractors here?

Postby justsomekitingdude » Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:59 am

I had X-rays done last week didn't show anything obvious ... so I had a CT scan done today and I have 'anterior verterbral body wedging' the T4 and T5.

T4 showing 25% and the T5 showing 15% loss of height ... No wonder my back is sore ..

Anyone offer advice ? My GP said I should gradually feel better over the next few weeks but there was not much else that could be done ..... true ? ... Niel .... help ,,, lol

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Re: Back Problem Help... Any Chiropractors here?

Postby Neill » Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:27 am

Man, sounds like you have a few crush fractures there, you must have taken quite a hit landing on your back? usually a forced flexion injury.

Basically "anterior" means the front of the vertebrae, and the wedging indicates that the front of the vertebrae is now thinner than the back. Essentially the body of the vertebrae has collapsed a little bit. Small crush fractures like yours in a young patient will usually heal within 6-8 weeks or so, but it does need some rest to be able to go about its business. They don't usually surgically fix them for younger guys because they are a stable fracture and the outcomes after surgery are worse.

So take it easy, rest up and keep your flexibility up as much as possible. Some core strength work wouldn't go astray either. If you google "transversus abdominus" and "back pain" together you should find some good work done by a few australian universities' PhD students regarding this. It's slowly becoming adopted worldwide now and appears to be the best thing for long-term back injury prevention that we have found yet.

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Re: Back Problem Help... Any Chiropractors here?

Postby MHK » Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:35 pm

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Hi Cdakiter

An MRI will be definetive on how many mm's your disk protrusion is (if you have one)and other soft tissue issues of the disk and surrounding area. Xray is very poor for this but will show a degenerative disc with vacum defect and other abnormalities of decreased joint space, etc.es. MRI is the bomb for soft tissue evalutation. On disection the mass majority of cadavers show disk protrusions and all of us show some level of osteoarthritic degeneration with age. The mass majority of us have protrusions that are asymptomatic. Inflamation around them secondary to a strain sprain or other can increase pressure and symptomotolgy. Supporting the spine with good abdominal muscle strenghtening and core muscle work as well as the low back extensors is importantant. Use the most supportive harness you can and be sure it fits snugly. If you don't have muscle weakness, change of reflexes, dermatome irregularity, sciatica or other symptomatology along with a definitive MRI to make an absolute don't kitesurf recomedation, you should do a rehab and prevention curriculum to kite till you die. Are the posterior bodies almost touching? Do you have facetal imbrication? Is there a protusion and if so is it a floating protrusion, how big is it, is post lateral, medial, blah, blah, blah. What is the clinical picture from subjective and objective standpoint? These are but a few of the questions a good practitioner will ask along with the biggest one. What are the most important things in your life? IF kitesurfing is one, he sure in hell should do some research to see what can be done to support your low back. If he has a patient scheduled every 15 minutes as most hmo type groups, he just won't have time and say, errr.. take these, they reduce pain in 80 percent of people (then increase osteo arthritic activity in joints and have heaps of other awful side effects) but won't mention that. Look at all the studies proving this. Won't get it from a representitive of the billion dollar a month pharmaceutical companies seeing that doc in a non stop line all week. (My bio chem teacher was also a pharm rep, lots of stories)

Hamstring hypertonicity is one of the most common preventable conditions leading to low back pain. If you look where the hamstrings attach you will see it is what you might call the "sit bones". If they are very tight they will pull the pelvis down and stress the already in most people over tight para lumbar musculatur as the quadrtus lumborum and the like. Working to lengthen the muscles of the posterior legs and lower back while strengthening the oblique muslces can make a huge difference. Yoga is fantastic and back extensors must also be strenthened in a very controlled maner. Core muscle strength is key. All muscle groups must be stretched and strengthened for maximum performance and prevention. To much emphasis in muscle mass and not structural foundation forming small muscles brings on a mirade of conditions.

Even Laird and crew were showing me their core muscle strengthening regime the last time I was priviledged to work out at Don's house with them. Pro NFL guys, big time rock stars along side Dons life of weight lifting in the same room, in common realization that the stability of the core muscles in balancing while lifting, etc is very important for longevity in their professions and quality of life as well. These guys do circuit training with range of motion work prior to doing a cardio up the hill on mountain bikes and then train the rest of the day in other sports.. Ultimate life.. You need to hit it all. If you are seeing a Pt or Dc, do ask for a list of home exercises to compliment the usual hand out list that will help with everything from the SITS muscles of the rotator cuff to the easily built up scar tissue over the fermoral head and that trouble causing tight ilio tibial band/TFL on the outside of your lower leg. Athletes at there level can not just treat symptoms with NSATS but do everything they can to reach their maximum potential and prevent and treat any injury imediately. In Lance Armstongs book, he gives the greatest thanks to his DC for his out of the ordinary approaches in keeping he and his entire peleton on the road in the by far most difficult event in sport. Lance sees all types of practitioners and does what works obviously.

All DC's are initially instructed to watch gait and pelvic alignment. Like all have said, there are all types of docs. Some want to give you a drug, some want to cut and some want to just manipulate. What you want to do is find a doc who is more "new school" if you would and perhaps advertises preventitive health care in the DC arena and can actually walk the walk or certainly a DC with CCSP certified chiropractic sport physician in your area might help. A lot has to do with when a doc went through school for MD and DC and where. Here in Ca, we had to do all this stuff back and forwards and could not get that dried and printed pulp on the wall without it. They have actually taken about a year off of our old curiculum over the last 18 years since my graduation as we could not get reimbursed for a lot of the stuff we were trained to do. I did my residency in sports med but am not a CCSP. Did a lot of study in seminars and on my own to suppliment. There are also chiropractic orthopedists, neurologists, etc. and like their medical brothers have spent the years to get these added degrees. Wish I got one in how to fix the broken spell check on this old and smoking box of chips. If any MD ever gives you that bit again Idaho, drop me a fax number and I will fax you my hourly curriculum compared to a very well known med school next door at the time compiled by a neruo who taught at both schools and he will quickly change his uninformed mind quickly.. This being said, when first out of school I ran the old urine lab for so many parts per million the prescribed times and diagnosed a patient in which this diangnosis has been missed though symptomatology had been there all along. Unfortunately when it was time for billing return, though I was trained and tested by the schools/state to do all these labs and required to know the material to practice in this state, the insurance company would not reimburse me for the diagnosis or tests. This leads to specialists not practing things they can't get reimbursed for by that hmo or ppo and along with other things they learned in school, get rusty and why you don't go to a GP for a low back pain diagnosis. An MRI will be difinetive on how many mm's your disk protrusion and xray is very poor for this but can show a degenerative disc with vacum defect and other abnormalities as compression fractues etc. On disection the mass majority of cadavers show disk protrusions. The mass majority of us have protrusions that are asymptomatic. A gp may have done a quick round of his residency in ortho but has no more handle on that than his dermo or parisitology which by the way we also had to do. For your other symptoms, you might consult a neuro of the MD or DC realm. Look for a DC working with a local am. or pro sports team for your other injuries. The only guy who ever helped me with my elbow was Dr Lebeau who has worked with pretty much every olympic sport and run countless ortho (MD and all other practitioners) doctor teams with pt's for all sorts of pro sports in every country). He was shot several times in Vietnam and when returned helped by chiros in much of his rehab. This prompted him to pursue the career path. While in his first year of school here, his car was hit and his Van rolled on top of his arm crushing it. His team of orthos brought him a cart of prosthetic lower arms to choose from. He said, no I want to keep my arm, they all said it will be useless and must come off. He fought back telling them his chiro instructors said the body could regenerate an attachment for the wrist flexors, etc. The surgeons said no way and but he steadfastly refused to let them cut and followed the physical rehab and other therapy of his 1970s chiro education and has had full use of his arm since his original DC treatments. The tubercle developed to support the muscular atachments is something to see. You only know what you are taught in school and must always look at what everyone else is doing. I love these people who are MD, DC, Acupuncurists with a side pracice in psychotherapy. Dr LeBeau's doctors were that of the VA in LA and the most prestigious med school in LA.. Old surgical techniques from old school docs, 1940s nutrition from people instructed with the same food pyrimid today...

Good luck and hope this helps. Read McDougals Medicine a challenging second opinion as well as McDougal MD's other books as well as The China Study by the top Ivy league researcher we have on the state of research and treatment in the USA and the world. If you don't ask you don't know and I certainly need to ask a lot about everything. That G matter is way to infused with salt and sun... :lol: When I was a kid after seeing every imaginable medical specialists for years about severe headaches, instant relief came with the last resort. This was a chriopractor my body builder/nutrition interested parents happend to know. So maybe I look for alternatives and hope others do as well. You are probably the only person who got through the first few words without falling asleep. Sorry to all others. PM me if you want more info.
Dude..man you really get carried away! :soap:

Bottom line...

Anti-inflammatory over the counter meds ( ibuprofen) , ice and rest. If it persists say over a month get checked out..

You’ll probably end up getting a MRI to start off with. This would be for a nuero eval. To rule out nerve impingement secondary to bulging or in a worse case herniated disk (HNP).

Only after knowing exactly whats going on can you pursue the right course of action..and don’t be afraid to gat second opinions.

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Re: Back Problem Help... Any Chiropractors here?

Postby FredBGG » Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:10 pm

[quote="MHK"]
Anti-inflammatory over the counter meds ( ibuprofen) , ice and rest. If it persists say over a month get checked out..

quote]

Not the best aproach for long term results. Inflamation is the body's response and repair process. Ibuprofen and ice both inhibit this process. Anti-inflamatories and iceing will leave the tissue in a weaker state.
No to mention the liver and kidney risks of taking Ibuprofen for more than a day or two..... just read the package insert :o

There are better natural aproaches. Unlike Ibuprofen they wont mask the pain, but instead they favor a natural inflamatory process reducing the pain somewhat. Tumeric and Bromelain are usefull. Also DMSO infusions. DMSO is MSM with an Oxygen molecule attached. It is a highly absorbed slighly oily liquid. Once absorbed it releases oxygen in the damaged tissues, in particular in cartilage and tendons that have little blood circulation to start with. What is left is msm that is a building block for conective tissue, tendons and cartilage.

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Re: Back Problem Help... Any Chiropractors here?

Postby blowhard » Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:21 pm

As always a lot of different views
My story is ,
After riding my bike up a very steep hill sitting on the seat I herniated my second and third disc on the anterior
one doc said cut and remove
one doc said before that try the Robin Mckenzie method of PT

Suffering through double dosage pain meds ,(Oxycontin)
for two weeks while the docs where taking Mri's and waiting to see if I would pop

So I enter the Pt and the dude watchs me walk down the hall and doesn't look at my $1500.00
pics ,that I paid for on my $5k deductible
he prescribes a simple stretch that I did once and hour for 6 hrs. and haven't had meds since for it
both prognosis were correct
but the A.M.A. doesn't recognize the P.T. trade as a medical profession

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Re: Back Problem Help... Any Chiropractors here?

Postby howdoyouflythisthing » Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:23 pm

Ahh, nothing like a bit of professional squabbling on a public forum to reassure the public we are all professionals.

I work a chiro in the UK, although I am from Canada and did one of my degrees in the US, after several yrs in practice you develop a pretty thick skin but I can empathise with monkey's response to Neil's initial comments of not seeing a chiro. I would suspect Neil's comment was likely based on a personal bias as it wasn't based on any sound research. To be fair, there is a small element of my profession that occasionally makes some rather foolish,and frankly embarrassing, public statements and has an equally large chip on their shoulder about seeing physios.

Fortunately, in Europe, N. America and in fact much of the world healthcare in very well regulated. All regulated professions have a comprehensive education followed by rigorous board examinations. (That said I can think of a few chiros, physios and MD's that I wouldn't trust with a dead cat) Whether you see a registered chiro, physio, osteopath or GP they are all trained in diagnostic triage and there is a fair bit of professional overlap. Fortunately, there are guidelines for clinicians to follow. I googled the American guidelines for you. http://www.chirobase.org/07Strategy/AHC ... ician.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As for who you should initially see, that's up to you anything more would be a personal bias.

Best wishes,

Lester

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Re: Back Problem Help... Any Chiropractors here?

Postby MHK » Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:25 pm

or Message
FredBGG

Post subject: Re: Back Problem Help... Any Chiropractors here? Reply with quote
MHK wrote: Anti-inflammatory over the counter meds ( ibuprofen) , ice and rest. If it persists say over a month get checked out..

quote]

Not the best aproach for long term results. Inflamation is the body's response and repair process. Ibuprofen and ice both inhibit this process. Anti-inflamatories and iceing will leave the tissue in a weaker state.
No to mention the liver and kidney risks of taking Ibuprofen for more than a day or two..... just read the package insert :o

There are better natural aproaches. Unlike Ibuprofen they wont mask the pain, but instead they favor a natural inflamatory process reducing the pain somewhat. Tumeric and Bromelain are usefull. Also DMSO infusions. DMSO is MSM with an Oxygen molecule attached. It is a highly absorbed slighly oily liquid. Once absorbed it releases oxygen in the damaged tissues, in particular in cartilage and tendons that have little blood circulation to start with. What is left is msm that is a building block for conective tissue, tendons and cartilage.
Now..now I never implied taking Ibuprofen continuously for a month. I thought I was dealing with common sense individuals on this forum. Don’t prove me wrong. If you need further elaboration just ask don’t assume.

Your choice of treatment I would agree with if we were discussing degenerative joint issues, or joint injury.

Being the poster is 17, complaining of unresolved pain triggered by lumbar extension it is most likely a neuro issue.

We can speculate all day. He is just going to get checked out.

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Re: Back Problem Help... Any Chiropractors here?

Postby scklandl » Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:49 pm

FredBGG wrote:[

Not the best aproach for long term results. Inflamation is the body's response and repair process. Ibuprofen and ice both inhibit this process. Anti-inflamatories and iceing will leave the tissue in a weaker state.
.
wow, havent worked much in rehab hunh?

the bodies inflammatory response is a leftover byproduct from our caveman days that is almost totally useless in the modern era where we DONT need a natural casting mechanism. I could go off here but I wont.

70% of the damage Im correcting daily is a direct result of the overzealous inflammatory response. 30 % or less is the original injury. Stopping the inflammatory response is PARAMOUNT to 100% rehab.

encouraging the inflammatory response is such a bad idea and I cant think of one respected school of thought that follows that notion

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Re: Back Problem Help... Any Chiropractors here?

Postby nab1000 » Sat Jan 26, 2008 5:20 am

yah, i'm an idiot and still haven't gotten it checked out. It will now have to wait till i get back from snowboarding tommarow :smash: , however, wont be hitting rails or anything like i normally do. Probally have to wait for the next swell to come through too... (8ft perfect hatty)...... Hope i have a couple oxy's left over from my last surgery.


I want to thank everyone for giving their proffessional opinions, and really appreciate the people who are willing to atleast put ideas into my head for free. It really helps since my health insurance hasn't been covering me well at all. I will see a doctor sometime this week, and get the appropriate test done.
Can you explain more precisely in what positions it is more painfull and in what position/s it is less painfull or not at all.
IS it better standing or lying down?

Cheers

Fred
It occurs i would say in the mid to upper lower back, and really only hurts if I arch back in the position that i originally fell in.


Hope everyone has good winds and surf


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