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Ocean Rodeo raises the bar to a whole new level

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El Rudo
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Re: Ocean Rodeo raises the bar to a whole new level

Postby El Rudo » Sun Sep 27, 2009 4:29 pm

rodeoclown wrote:
magnus_norway wrote:
El Rudo wrote:Thanks Kitezilla, your assumptions are correct - With keeping it clean I'm referring to unneeded strong language and personal attacks. Appreciated!
I'm by no means trying to limit this thread to questions about the looks and shape of the bar, ask/discuss away about the functioning of this entire control system, bar and ergonomics included!
So by this you mean that you want a discussion, but when I ask some questions about the safety, you choose to respond with comments about how this is not an issue since no-one complains about it (except maybe 9 pages back and forth on this topic?) and also choose to attack my question by saying that it is too theoretical and sooooooo 2006. Why not just answer the simple question of whether or not it is good enough to have a safety that will never guarantee you total depower of your kite in an emergency except if you choose to attach your leash to a front line (which means you loose the spinning part of the bar)?
This system works great for me, being able to ride away from 99% of my screw ups is great.
That 1% where I kill the session by flagging the front line is a super easy option for a "thinking" sailor.

I think this new bar shape is gonna make me-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pXfHLUlZf4
:thumb:

Sweeeeeet job OR!
Honestly Clown, I didn't! :nono:

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Re: Ocean Rodeo raises the bar to a whole new level

Postby windsurfer-resurrection » Sun Sep 27, 2009 4:48 pm

gonewiththewind... I have been kiting since 1999 and the Ocean Rodeo Bar is very safe and funtional... I have about 100 sessions on one 2009 Ocean Rodeo Bar/line set..,.
It works perfectly with the OR Rise kite....I love being able to punch out in a pinch...and then if nessasarry to flag with the front line..... wonderfull saftey set up......I consistenlty self launch and land in nuken wind with confidence with the OR bar design.

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Re: Ocean Rodeo raises the bar to a whole new level

Postby eag » Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:31 pm

I've had 9 different OR Rises and matching bars over the last 3 years and I've never had an issue with this safety system. I ride 100+ days a year and I've NEVER broken a trim line. I replace them once mid season - it costs $25 and takes 5 min, no big deal.

It's a simple effective system and I see no reason to add another line into the mix. You're all right that the kite does not "fully flag" like a single line system, but the power it has when ejected is about what you'd get from a golden retriever pulling on its leash. If you can't handle that maybe you should hit the gym, or get a dog for practice.

In hairy situations its also nice that you can recover and relaunch super quickly after pulling the safety and the kite is not all twisted off one line.

In a self rescue situation (like last night when the wind died on the inside and I has to swim 200 yards) you simply pull in the single front line tab, wrap it on the bar and then wrap the lines. It always ends up clean and eliminates that "golden retriever pull" while self rescuing.

Hope this perspective from a longtime OR bar user helps you all with your decision making.
Now I hope my 2010 gear comes soon!

tungsten222
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Re: Ocean Rodeo raises the bar to a whole new level

Postby tungsten222 » Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:47 pm

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Last edited by tungsten222 on Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

eag
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Re: Ocean Rodeo raises the bar to a whole new level

Postby eag » Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:51 pm

tungsten222 wrote:9 kites in 3 years? Don't they last longer than 1 year?

Haha just jokin', sure it's because the new kites are on a whole new level :D
HA - Yeah, that wouldn't be good.

No I just get new kites every year and the second owners of all of these kites have been pretty happy with them.

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kitezilla
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Re: Ocean Rodeo raises the bar to a whole new level

Postby kitezilla » Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:59 pm

The question was asked by Frankm1960:

“What are the chances of the bar fetching up on the stopper or just jamming up?”

EvanOR answered:

“While anything is possible, in three years of using this system I've never seen or had a report of it happening, so effectively zero. That's why we keep it simple. A good safety system works most of the time, whereas the industry standard needs to work 100% of the time.”

My concern is stated below:

This brings up some similar questions that were asked on the Best kite forum a couple of years ago, concerning their system ("dual depower" stopper system) of bypassing the stopper ball, which operated in a similar manner to the Ocean Rodeo stopper ball override ( stopper bypass). Best called it a dual depower system. The Best system worked fine and the stopper ball was bypassed, as long as the kite was thrown to its safety while the kite was fairly powered up. The Best system did not work to fully bypass the stopper ball, however, if the kite was thrown to its safety, while the kite was DEPOWERED. This was due to the problem of friction of the power line on a number of places, where the line rubbed against the holes in the stopper ball, the hole in the bar and the hole in the chicken loop, along with the friction created by the power line “bending” sharply around the ring (there was no pulley for the power line to go around) at the top of the power line, where it joined the trim strap. On their forum, the Best representative owned up to this problem and recommended that the user should throw the kite to its safety while the kite is powered up, and noted that the stopper bypass functioning would be compromised if the kite was thrown to its safety, while the kite was depowered.

For comparison, here is a link to the Best 09 bar manual, showing pictures of the “dual depower stopper” system engaged, with the effect of bypassing or overriding the stopper ball, and thereby achieving the maximum depower of the kite, which, like the OR system, is the same amount of depower the kiter would achieve by pushing the bar all the way up the power line.

http://media.bestkiteboarding.com/manua ... Manual.pdf

So, My question is:


Does the OR design have similar friction issues, and if so, do you have a similar warning that this stopper bypass system can only be trusted to fully function , if the kite is thrown to its safety under power?

If this issue does not exist with the OR system, why not? What did OR do differently to eliminate the friction issue of the power line passing through a number of holes and around a bend?

I don't know whether or not Best solved their friction problem.

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El Rudo
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Re: Ocean Rodeo raises the bar to a whole new level

Postby El Rudo » Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:15 pm

The stopper is of the same type as the Naish smart loop and a couple of others. I'm not too familiar with the Best stopper but the problem you describe sounds unfamiliar. Let me try to explain:
When you eject the QR, all, even if just little, tension is on the one remaining end of the trim loop. The channel inside the stopper will align with that line end and allow the line to slide up. The friction caused by the freed end line is not enough to stop this from happening, even with pretty worn up and fluffy lines.

The stopper is about the same as the 09, with 3 step adjustable push-out friction.

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Re: Ocean Rodeo raises the bar to a whole new level

Postby dpca10 » Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:42 pm

Ok, I'd like to throw in my 2 cents here. If you get bored of reading at least read the bottom part since I think it's really important..

Zack I don't know how you are getting dragged over some reef with the OR bar with the kite in the air, if it's on the water and its pulling you and you don't want to relaunch then swim a few feet towards the kite, the lines will slacken and it will flip on it's back just like a 5th line kite.

I fly the rise, use the rise bars, and have flown a huge variety of bars and kites over the years. I know the OR guys well and have talked at great length with Ross (the designer) about the pros and cons of a mini 5th on the rise bar. There are merits to what both Evan and Zack are saying. There are merits to a mini 5th and a duel front line depower kite. I'll try to break them down: I'm going to use DCLD "duel center line depower" and mini 5th (one line) for abbreviations.

Standard release depower:
- Duel center line depower (DCLD) is a simpler system and can reliably depower the kite in 99% of situations,
- The mini 5th can reliably depower the kite in 99% of situations, but requires maintaining an unspun line (yes Zack, even with a swivel, unless this thing is mechanized you will need to look at it.)
Advantage: Equal

*** Caviat: if your kite does not depower on a reasonable amount of throw then yes this may not depower your kite enough, I would agree that having the mini 5th one one side can pull your kite out of the sky and I like this about it, but there is a lot to consider.

Wear:
- The DCLD is less likely to wear to the point of breakage, since the lines are large
- Mini 5ths wear and break, just search for it, so many posts about IDS line wear, SS center line's wear, north 5th wear, the fact is any line and particularly small line through the bar is going to be stressed.
Advantage: DCLD

Simplicity:
- The DCLD is foolproof, only way it could be simpler is if there was one line, but the force needed to pull in depower rope would be too great without a complex pulley system. The kite falls and crashes but rarely flips over.
- The mini 5th is an extra line, plane and simple, 3 is more than 2, and the swivel will need to be maintained as well as line awareness. The kite can flip over after crashing and then be frustratingly hard to get to flip and relaunch.
Advantage: DCLD

Progression:
-The DCLD is a great system for unhooking as the kite reliably depowers 90% when dropped, and maintains an easy relaunch position
-The Mini 5th works in 1 of 2 ways, if there is a stopper ball at the swivel then it will depower the kite the same as a double line system and maintain a more relaunchable position, if there is no stopper ball (more like the traditional north system) where the bar winds up 20 feet away from you and then there is so much redundent line floating around, then yes you get more like 99% depower, but at the cost of getting tangled in your lines (this has happend to me) and having the kite in a tough relaunch position:
Advantage: Equal maybe 5th for pure depower, DCLD for unhooked.


The fact is that the OR bar has a swivel at the bottom that would allow for unspinning of the 5th line, if you want to add one i think you could, but it takes a little knowhow to use the mini 5th right. I think SS has made a big mechanical step with development of a simple unspinner at the kite side. I was one of the biggest advocates of the 5th line, and after that the mini 5th. But with every extra line or part comes a potential complication. There have been deaths with a mini 5th, I saw a 5th line kitemare a few weeks ago, it is all relative. I push myself pretty hard, so I crash a lot, i'd end up riding suicide most of the time if I had a 5th or mini 5th. Would I ride a mini 5th, maybe while launching, but the DCLS gives 90+% depower with the relaunch advantage you'd get riding suicide. The mini 5th is best for beginners, but they are the ones who are most likely to get into trouble with it's disadvantages.


*****So back to the OR bar: No one has mentioned this but OR has made a huge safety step forward with their quick release, it is self righting for unhooking but also has throw for the release so it can reliably be activated in any situation. THIS IS HUGE. If you get your center lines looped around the bar in some way (this has happened to a lot of people i know) The kite cannot be released by the majority of bars on the market, including from what I can see the new SS Bar. Sorry to be so specific, but this should be added to toby's safety standards. Anyway, this isn't a situation of depower but purely of getting rid of a death looping kite. This is the feature that sets the OR bar above the competition in my mind.

Summary: Double center line depower systems basically get the job done well and simply. Mini 5ths get it done as well. There are going to be scenarios where one is going to be better than the other. Since this all equals out, I think we can go back to focusing on the rest of the new bar design which is top notch. Considering the above mentioned safety improvement, and the sleek new design, I couldn't be happier with the new OR bar.

five
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Re: Ocean Rodeo raises the bar to a whole new level

Postby five » Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:17 pm

It seems obvious to me that "the proof is in the pudding." Three years of riders using this setup in a wide variety of conditions and no complaints or issues...in fact I think OR riders are pretty stoked with it.The system works, as me and numerous other riders can attest to. I definitely encourage people to just go try one and see how it works :D

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Re: Ocean Rodeo raises the bar to a whole new level

Postby tungsten222 » Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:25 pm

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Last edited by tungsten222 on Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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