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Ocean Rodeo raises the bar to a whole new level

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five
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Re: Ocean Rodeo raises the bar to a whole new level

Postby five » Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:28 am

John B. wrote:Hi Evan,

A question on self landing, if the kite fully depowers when releasing the QR why would you not just release the QR and when the kite is on the water just pull on both center lines to walk up to the kite. I know one option if you want to self rescue would be to flag the kite after the QR is released but you will probably tangle the lines, is there any reason for not pulling on both center lines to walk up to the kite.
John...I have used this method (or similar) effectively when I come in and am very powered and Evan's method is more difficult. With that said, Evan's landing method works a very high percentage of the time without problems!

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Re: Ocean Rodeo raises the bar to a whole new level

Postby schmoe » Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:07 am

El Rudo wrote:Schmoe, it looks like you're writing this from a perspective that the cleat is all so terrible and eats lines and gets the line totally locked in and so forth.
You are describing the limited bar throw on the cabrinha system. This is 1:1 caused by the reachability of the above the bar trimming system. We don't have to take this in to account since a below the bar trimming system enables us to have a trim loop as long as we want for optimal safety.
As for the cleat, we have improved the cleat to lock up and wear way less, the wear is absolutely there BUT much less then any wear from the bar center hole.

However, I can't see the cabrinha system wear.

Because it's hidden away from any inspection.
Yep, you are correct on all accounts. The previous OR bars had the line locked in the cleat, like other bar cleats (slingshot). Unless something radical changed in the cleat, I would assume it is the same case. Very hard to trim on the top end of the kite and you need two hands.

Slingshot is trying a center line with two different diameters on both sides to solve that. Seems little dangerous since the week point in the chain is the weakest line.
There are other kites with above the bar trim that is long enough, Flexifoil and Best come to mind. I think the short trim is a cabrinha thing and not a design constraint. I remember they had very short trim even on C kites back in the day. Its OK until the lines stretch.

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Re: Ocean Rodeo raises the bar to a whole new level

Postby El Rudo » Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:45 am

Nothing too radical Schmoe, we tested a whole heap of different cleats with used lines and found one that matches with the line we use MUCH better. Criteria: 1 better unlocking 2 more compact. It was a nice surprise to see that independently, Slinshot went with the same cleat.

Just to bother you some background here: We use 5mm spectra line. This is pretty soft line, with the big upside that it won't saw through your skin. But it also becomes big and fluffy over time, even without it wearing. Because of this, it behaves like a much thinner line inside a cleat because it can flatten out. The cleat we use now is for thinner line ranges, so the line can't bottom in the cleat channel and the cleat teeth grip a larger section of the line circumference.

Again, there a pros and cons to the trim loop system, I think we all admit that. OR makes this bar available with both trim loops and trim straps. The Rise - trim loop combo has worked fine over the last couple of years and in this edition has been refined for better functionality and durability.

If you want to see Ross repeatedly take the trim line out of the cleat with great ease, check the video. You can argue that he ain't powered, yet the first reports from riders using the new bar for hours in powered conditions are absolutely positive about this.

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kitezilla
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Re: Ocean Rodeo raises the bar to a whole new level

Postby kitezilla » Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:47 pm

El Rudo wrote:
Again, there a pros and cons to the trim loop system

In the discussion of "below the bar depower trim systems",one issue (other than the issue about the ease of cleating and un-cleating the power line), is the issue of the loose rope dangling down and flying around the body of the kiter. It seems that, with the long "throw" of the OR system (about a half a meter, if I understand it correctly), that this would mean that, when the kite is completely trimmed for the high end of the kite's range, that there would be a total of maybe a full meter of loose rope hanging down with the 2 balls at the end of it.

On a related note, with most of the double line "below the bar depower trim systems", as the kiter trims the kite, in situations where the wind picks up, then, the length of the "throw" of the bar decreases. In contrast, with the classical webbing trim strap, located above the powerline, the length of "throw" does not decrease, as the kite is trimmed.

Have you considered a mechanism to keep the loose trim line from becoming a potential "tangling" problem...like a little sack to stuff the loose rope in...or a bungee type restraint?

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Re: Ocean Rodeo raises the bar to a whole new level

Postby El Rudo » Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:04 pm

Kitezilla,
The dangling end was an issue in the days the leash was connected to it. Since last year, the leash connects to the end that sits put against the CL hub. The length of loose line seldomly exceeds 20 cm or so, which does dangle like you say. That may be a trade off against the strap system, whereas straps don't win the less-bulk award either. The dangling part is never that long to cause any trouble, in the real world you really won't care.
The bar throw is easily over a meter, and by the time you have pulled in enough trim line to impair the bar stroke your (Rise) kite is face down in front of you.
No real problems here.

As for the last suggestion, for now a bit of the old "we don't fix what's not broken" here. As designers we're totally allergic for that phrase so keep an eye on us.
Note that any innovation to something as critical as the CL/trim/safety unit needs extra thorough testing. Failure is no option here - for the obvious reasons.

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Re: Ocean Rodeo raises the bar to a whole new level

Postby EvanOR » Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:08 pm

kitezilla wrote:
El Rudo wrote:
Again, there a pros and cons to the trim loop system

In the discussion of "below the bar depower trim systems",one issue (other than the issue about the ease of cleating and un-cleating the power line), is the issue of the loose rope dangling down and flying around the body of the kiter. It seems that, with the long "throw" of the OR system (about a half a meter, if I understand it correctly), that this would mean that, when the kite is completely trimmed for the high end of the kite's range, that there would be a total of maybe a full meter of loose rope hanging down with the 2 balls at the end of it.

On a related note, with most of the double line "below the bar depower trim systems", as the kiter trims the kite, in situations where the wind picks up, then, the length of the "throw" of the bar decreases. In contrast, with the classical webbing trim strap, located above the powerline, the length of "throw" does not decrease, as the kite is trimmed.

Have you considered a mechanism to keep the loose trim line from becoming a potential "tangling" problem...like a little sack to stuff the loose rope in...or a bungee type restraint?
Great questions, however:

Excess trim line is a non issue. Due to the design of the kite itself, the maximum amount of trim a person would ever pull in is about 8-12 inches, and even this amount is unnecessary and excessive in my opinion. The majority of available sheeting and depower is within the range of an arm's length, so simply sheeting out gets you most of it. That it is one the great things about the Rise, especially the 2010 model. The power delivery/band is very progressive and easy to tap into simply via the bar throw.

If I am consistently way overpowered, I do trim in 3 to 6 inches to make things more comfortable. With this amount of trim and the available bar throw, you can easily tap into all of the available depower.

Bar throw is decreased slightly by trimming in, but since there is so much available throw there to start with this is also non-issue.

Cheers,

Evan

Ocean Rodeo
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Performance over Hype

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Re: Ocean Rodeo raises the bar to a whole new level

Postby Miltsface » Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:07 pm

The '07 bar had a piece of velcro sewn onto the end of the trim line, which you could stick onto the mating piece of velcro attached to the chicken loop. This effectively cut the amount of the dangling line in half. That'd be an easy mod to anyone who was overly concerned about the line hanging down, but really, we're only talking about 6"-12" of line. I don't think i've ever had more than about a foot of trim pulled in.

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Re: Ocean Rodeo raises the bar to a whole new level

Postby kitezilla » Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:11 pm

Miltsface wrote:The '07 bar had a piece of velcro sewn onto the end of the trim line, which you could stick onto the mating piece of velcro attached to the chicken loop. This effectively cut the amount of the dangling line in half. That'd be an easy mod to anyone who was overly concerned about the line hanging down, but really, we're only talking about 6"-12" of line. I don't think i've ever had more than about a foot of trim pulled in.
The velcro sounds like the simplest solution to having rope hanging down. I have also heard of the use of Neodymium magnets to do the same thing.

However, it is good to know that no issue exists with the OR system. I thought that short-armed kiters who like to keep the bar close to themselves, throughout the full range of windspeed, might have to pull in more than a few inches of rope.

The ring for the attachment of the safety leash was a clever idea. Way to go!

Thanks for the quick and informative responses to my questions.

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Re: Ocean Rodeo raises the bar to a whole new level

Postby jpkiter » Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:41 pm

can you incorporate into the video (s)...best way to use that little black grab handle by the swivel on the front lines ?

thanks

jp

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Re: Ocean Rodeo raises the bar to a whole new level

Postby El Rudo » Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:00 am

We're finalizing the spinning suicide leash ring as the first batch of SLE 3.0 bars is being finished:
Image
It is an option mostly for the Diablo (C-kite) dedicated crew but will be made available for the SLE bar as well.


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