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Doctors on Helmets

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noel
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Re: Doctors on Helmets

Postby noel » Sun Jun 06, 2010 4:34 am

I'm not arguing with you Rick. Just stating what I know. As for all those people your talking about, I only know of 2 or 3 of those. I also don't ride at Whale Harbor as you know, so I don't know everything that happens there. I do however ride at Annes Beach and the worse injury in the last 2 to 3 years was a bad man of war reaction. I've been riding for 11 years and 99 percent of my injuries have been to my feet. Most injuries I know involved big loops or sliders and kickers.

Now with the regulations at MH, our jobs will be tougher down here keeping our beaches safe.
RickI wrote:Five max, you must lead a sheltered life Noel. I've been to the hospital and walk in clinics at least that many times myself. Its not just me either, lots of guys have particularly many of the longer term folks. You had one guy in Islamorada who ended up in the ER a number of times, yanked off pinky fingers, near drowning being pulled by his kite underwater at a bridge (may not have been treated for that one but damn near was killed). What about that guy who almost got taken out slamming into jetty and docks at Whale Harbor a while back? They're been a bunch of guys injured in Key West including a few doozies, dual broken legs, TBI, etc...

Hard to believe things are more dialed in at Islamorada, smaller beach, closer cars and shallower water, the same strong winds as KW, guys riding too close to shore. So, I guess you better add staying away from the Keys, might as well include mainland Florida too. Think of the kiters hauled off in ambulances in Miami, still more further up in South Florida. Some involved Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI), comas including some long ones. Trauma doc's know trauma very well having to live with it on a regular basis. Imagine seeing and dealing with all the injuries these guys treat in a month. The decisions, procedures, successes and losses. I wouldn't lightly blow off what these guys know about brain injury and likely causes.

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Re: Doctors on Helmets

Postby longwhitecloud » Sun Jun 06, 2010 6:08 am

Thank god the rest of the world has not been infected by liability and the cash circus of $250 per hour lawyers that parades behind it, and the idea that the expense of injuries outways the positive influence doing sport has on peoples lives in an age where most sit in front of screens all day for entertainment and depression is at an all time high.

I am free to skate with or without a helmet and the same goes for kiting, I also teach kiting without helmets, although when I travel to other parts of the world and I see the kind of setups kiteschools have to deal with and the pressure of lessons vs money vs conditions/timeframes vs free space I would be dressing them up with more than a bloody helmet - well actually - there is no way I would be teaching at these places at all - kiting for sure is just not a suitable sport at some loactions.

What the surgeons have no idea of is the fact that far more effective than any helmet is choosing the low tide, location, conditions, and a location free of objects that could be hit if something goes wrong - ie teh buffer zone. All they know is head hit something hard - would have been better with a 3cm piece of foam in front of the rock.

When you do that launch without maximum buffer zone (ie at low tide nearest to teh sea - kite lauching towards teh sea, or go to land that trick without allowing for the accidental kiteloop at the end of it - you will eventually f*** up no matter how good u are.

If you are going to hit your head hard on the water best thing is to be riding with friends so you don't end up drowning just beacuse no one was around!

No way am I anti helmet, although I would like to know more about why some wakeboarders are scared to wear them due to hard water impacts with them on.

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Re: Doctors on Helmets

Postby RichardM » Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:03 am

I have posted the below several times but no one has ever commented on the fact that a helmet can PREVENT an accident and also thereby PROTECT OTHER PEOPLE.

The fact is that you can make a better case for kitesurfers being required to wear a helmet than any other sport for the following reasons:

In ALL OTHER sports (motorcycle riding included):

1. The MAIN purpose of a helmet is to protect the participant by keeping his/her brains in their head as well as preventing or at least minimizing a participant's less severe head injury DURING an accident. And in water sports, also to prevent drowning by becoming unconscious or severely stunned when hit hard.

It never PREVENTS an accident from occurring.

2. Virtually the ENTIRE benefit of the helmet accrues ONLY to the wearer.
(Whatever societal benefits there are in the respect that society has to spend less resources dealing with head injured people are comparatively minor.)

The DIFFERENCE is that in kiteboarding, BESIDES having the same purpose as #1 above:

3. Wearing a helmet CAN PREVENT a serious accident. Helmets can do this because a relatively minor head bonk without a helmet could stun someone enough so that they lose control of their kite and end up in the deep doo doo. You could get tapped by your board or dragged into a trash can etc. A helmet could be the difference between losing control of your kite or not.

And/or could be the difference between being able to activate your quick releases or not.

4. Because of the foregoing, a helmet can ALSO PROTECT OTHER PEOPLE since it is obvious that out of control kites are potentially dangerous to others as well as the unlucky kiter.

I have NEVER heard a GOOD reason why kiteboarders shouldn't wear a helmet.
If anyone believes that THEY KNOW A GOOD REASON, PLEASE POST IT on this thread !!

Reasons I consider NOT GOOD include:

1. They aren't comfortable enough.
It's true that at first they are noticeably less comfortable than NO helmet (unless its cold). However, there are many different brands, sizes etc. and anyone that can get used to wearing a harness, can easily get used to wearing a helmet.

2. They don't look cool.
What can I say. What's going to happen if some less-than rocket-scientist thinks you look less cool? If you're this insecure about your image, maybe you should spend some of your kiting time with self-help books.

3. I've never needed one.
Don't laugh. I've heard this more than once. How someone can conclude that never having BEEN bonked means they'll never BE bonked, always boggles my mind.

4. I can't afford one.
Get a used one. Obviously, virtually anyone that can afford to kitesurf can afford another $20 - 100.

SOME MISCELLANEOUS CONSIDERATIONS REGARDING HELMETS:

1. I understand that the VAST majority of kiteboarding FATALITIES are due to head injuries.

2. Helmets with ear protection are probably better because your board is NOT your friend and it might hit you there. Also, ear protection will eliminate the possibility of blowing out your eardrum in the event you hit the water hard on your ear (blown eardrums are EXTREMELY painful and distracting). They also can prevent getting ear exostosis (the ear canal narrows due to repeated exposure to cold water.

3. Bright colors like yellow may be advantageous in case you're ever hoping that the Coast Guard is going to find you. But if you'd like to be color coordinated to your equipment, that's OK.

4. Although visors may minimize problems caused by the sun, during a hard fall and/or going through a wave face, they may catch water and yank your head back.

Besides commenting on the foregoing, if anyone has a helmet which they especially like, it would be nice if they could post their reasons on this thread.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
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kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET

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Re: Doctors on Helmets

Postby FredBGG » Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:56 am

You can do an intresting test to see if you need a helmet when kiting.

Have a friend take a good swing at the back of your head with your board.

First try with the board flat.
Then try with the rail of the board.
Then for real fun and games have him or her hit you square on with the fins.

Oh you could also repeat the same thing with a nice heavy piece of drift wood... you know the soggy kind that hides a couple of millimeters under the water.

And you can try another thing all by yourself. Go to the very edge of the water where the sand is very compacted. Then smack your forhed straight into it. It has an intresting resemblance to cement.



Brain injury is a very serious thing

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Re: Doctors on Helmets

Postby Feng » Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:10 am

In paragliding, nobody flies without an Helmet.
In Ski/snowboard competition,Helmet is mandatory, but if you go to any ski resort you do not need a lot of people with an Helmet (except for the small kids).
You start to see more and more people using an Helmet on bicycle.
In junior kite surf competition, Helmet is mandatory (at least in France and I think in the UK).

I would probably good that the IKA (at leat they could be usefull for something) starts to promote Helmet during kite internation competition. This will be good business wise as it put some new surface for advertasing and sponsors.
And may be in a few years more and more people will use Helmet for kitesurfing.

On the grand scheme, Helmet for kitesurfing is like seat belt for cars.
Seat belt for cars is obviously an attack against the driver liberty and right to choose.
But the society (represented by the gouvernement) imposes drivers to wear a seat belt when driving and by this restrict the freedom of the people.

Why this ?
Simply because someone having an accident when driving without a seat belt is more lickly to have serious health concequences and this cost MONEY for the whole society due to:
- Emmergency serviced need a be very carfull (long time = money) when processing the injured person.
- Hospital cost: even if you have a private insurance, the hospital bill is paid by the insurance thanks to the premium paid of the insured people. If the probability of high cost increases, the insurance company will have to increase the fee of all insured people and this cost MONEY to to whole society.
- Long term: an injured person is lickly to cost money as he may not be able to work as efficiently as before (= lost of TAX revenu on his activity) and may need special equipments that add cost for the company he is working for or for the city he is living in.

To sumerize, as long as we are living in a society that does not kill immediatly the bably injured people but let them live (with a cost for the society), it is the duty of the society (i.e. the gouvernement) to ensure that the cost of accidents is reduced to the minimun and therefore inforce the usage of the seat belf when driving.
And (if the cost of kitesurfing accident increases thanks to the increase of people practicing the sport), inforce the usage an Helmet when kiting.

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Re: Doctors on Helmets

Postby ronnie » Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:23 am

I thought burst eardrums would be an injury that occurred often enough to be on the list, but I've never heard about it in kiting.

It's considered to be the most likely injury when learning to forward loop in windsurfing.

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Re: Doctors on Helmets

Postby RickI » Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:41 am

Ronnie, there have been a number of kiters with damaged ear drums, many talked about it on here over the years. Quite a few kiters like to use helmets for that reason alone as you anticipated. Others bothered by changes in their hearing take off removable ear covers on helmets that are set up with that option. Some of these posts show up at: http://tinyurl.com/2v4t9dc, I recall mention of quite a few others beyond these.

Something I think many of us would agree on, if you are lofted from the water or the beach inland, when you strike, often several times, you are at risk of a head injury. People break all sorts of things in these loftings. Guys may break their pelvis, arms, legs, collar bones and suffer traumatic brain injury sometimes and sometimes not. Sometimes the TBI is severe and in others milder? Why is this? Lofting impacts differ, you never know in advance how bad it is going to be and what might be messed up.

Of the 24 losses worldwide that happened in 2009 that I have learned of, 16 were loftings with many in severe weather/squalls. Over all 19 of these tragic losses may (or may not) have been altered if helmets had been worn. In some impacts a helmet would make little difference and yet it others, even powerful loftings, they can lessen injury, even save someones life.

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Re: Doctors on Helmets

Postby longwhitecloud » Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:31 am

24 in 2009? is that for real. and maybe more...

that makes the stats pretty much

70% of fatalitites occur in high wind /storm conditions (it has to be windy to get lofted)

That is no surprise to me whatsoever

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Re: Doctors on Helmets

Postby RickI » Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:58 am

Yes, that is the current total and there could be more. Kiters used to report such thing on here or privately via email. In the last couple of years this has diminished. I have found several recently by doing various searches in languages other than English.

It seems that riders may be feeling more immune to hazardous weather. The reality is we're not. Emergency Depowering properly and sufficiently in advance of lethal winds fails to happen all too often. Despite improvements in technology, we still need to learn what to look for and what to avoid in conditions. "Going because its blow'in" is a real bad idea in hazardous weather.
longwhitecloud wrote:24 in 2009? is that for real. and maybe more...

that makes the stats pretty much

70% of fatalitites occur in high wind /storm conditions (it has to be windy to get lofted)

That is no surprise to me whatsoever

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Re: Doctors on Helmets

Postby frankm1960 » Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:54 pm

I'm wondering if I should get one but I'm thinking that maybe they would be a PIA during routine kite crashes, wouldn't they get yanked off your head or get pulled over your eyes all the time? I'm thinking the chin strap would have to be real tight to keep it on your head during a "routine" spill. What happens when you land hard face first? does the helmet get pulled off your head and you get choked by the chin strap?

It makes all the sense in the world to wear one, and I do wear them for snowboard, skiing, snowkiting etc.

I just don't use them for water yet cause I think they'd be a pain.

The helmets I've seen online for kitesurfing look a bit bulky for the water.


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