low wind kite... opinions please.

[barneskite28]

Has anybody tried the 2011 crossbow 13? how much low end does it have compared to the 14 switchblade?

[kiteingcolin1]

low wind power has been on my kite menu for years, 2007 it was the royal era, last year the bandit 3 did the job superbly, and now its a bandit IV 14 mtr, brilliant, fast light and so powerfull with massive range, and smooth, kites just get better, very happy this year after the poor options available from years ago, when you had to go massive to haul your arse around the water in light airs, I weigh 85 kg

[Don Monnot]

For me the best low wind kite is one that relaunches easily in light wind. When the wind is light, there's always the possibility that the kite will come down in a lull. If the kite doesn't relaunch easily, you wind up drifting way downwind before you launch, and then struggle to get back upwind. Delta shapes sound like a good way to go for light wind. I've seen a Best Kahoona relaunched in almost no wind, but haven't had a chance to try one out yet to see how they perform otherwise.

Don

[Pump me up]

Large (eg 20m) inflatables are much better than ram airs (eg Flysurfer Speed). Ram airs are inferior for the following reasons:
a) Excessive drag (bridles, lack of internal rigidity), compromising the Lift/Drag ratio
b) VERY slow turning
c) Inertia. The Speed 2 19 contains over 11kg of air in its pockets, compared to about 3kg in the largest inflatables.
d) Bridle failures and tangling
e) Wind dropouts and gear failure
--EVERYONE experiences a few gear failures (eg broken lines) and COMPLETE wind dropouts every year. You're usually safe with an inflatable. It can be used to "self-rescue" or you can swim in with the kite. If things go REALLY bad, you can just use the inflatable structure to support your weight.
--ALL ram airs become hopelessly waterlogged after 45 minutes - unlaunchable and certainly unable to support your body weight.
eg viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2346569
eg viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2358958&p=608890#p608890
eg viewtopic.php?t=2359156&p=617396
-- The following is an example of "diraklib's" experience with ram airs in wind dropouts:

"the SA-19 is huge and can whack you silly if you let it get down wind of you in a low wind launch. It is downright scary - be ready with the QR at all times if not up and riding!!! I can't say I agree with claims that you can ride the SA-19 in anything lower than a steady 8 knots. I made a personal choice to not ride the SA-19 any more. It went down twice in lulls and managed to bow-tie on the way down - there was no way to relaunch. I was not as lucky as others that self rescued. My kite was full of water by the time I dragged my very tired and frustrated a$$ to shore. It sounds simple, "wrap the lines around the bar, fold the kite in half, roll it up on your board and paddle in"... noooo... there are lines everywhere under water that wrap around your feet as you are trying to manipulate the kite. You just pray that a gust won't pop the kite up and slice of an appendage. The kite ... is just too scary when it goes down. My attitude now is - if my LEI won't fly, I shouldn't be on the water. Anyone interested in a slightly used SA2-19m??? Cheap???"

For the full admission, checkout the following link: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2360979&start=40

-- The following is an example of FredBGG's experience with a line failure:

The other day I had a front line fail.
Wind was slightly off shore...
I really needed a tow to the beach.
I had the kite safely on the 5th line folded in half (flysurfer Foil)
I waved down two kiters.... both expert judging by their riding.
Both refused to help.
One even yelled if you can't relaunch it's your problem.
Anyway after a difficult ordeal in the surf and current I got back to the beach.
I had to rest a bit but my board was still out there.

For the full admission, checkout the following link: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2362065

The problem here isn't with the other kiters, it's with Fred's choice of kite. If Fred had an inflatable, he would have been able to "self-rescue" by grabbing the tips and "sailing" to shore. The other kiters refusing to help is understandable: Fred made the choice to choose less safe equipment (ram airs - for self rescue) - it's his problem and he shouldn't impose on others to make up for the deficiencies in his equipment. Also, towing a Flysurfer to shore is like towing a sleeping bag full of water - horrible.

Ignore the lies. Ignore the exaggerations. Ram airs are inferior compared to inflatables in wind dropouts and gear failures.
f) 8 knot limit
-- Despite what anybody tells you, you won't really have fun on any kite (ram air OR inflatable) unless the wind is over about 8 knots. This is the starting point for BOTH ram airs and inflatables, but because of the reasons I've outlined above, inflatables are vastly superior. And this is just the starting point. You won't really be having fun until it hits about 10 knots on an inflatable OR a ram air.
- Ram lovers are prone to exaggeration and just plain misinformation about light winds, eg see the following thread: Ram airs jump 8m in 8 knots ("The future is bright, the future is foil") https://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php ... &view=next

Please let me know which Kite you use that will allow me to get out in less than 5 knots. My Speed 3 19 DL gives up under 5 knots, so if you could please let me know about a flying tyre that will outdo my Speed3 please let me know Gunnar

Gunnar Biniasch has been caught out exaggerating the benefits of ram airs - typical ram lover lies and exaggerations. NO kite - ram air or inflatable - will perform in under 8 knots and definitely NO KITE WILL PERFORM UNDER 5 KNOTS. I won't go into the physics of it, but it is simply impossible for a kite to perform under 8 knots; definitely NO KITE WILL PERFORM UNDER 7 KNOTS. The physics is complex, but primarily involves the power that wind moving at 7 knots (13km/h) can deliver. There is simply not enough power or velocity at this wind speed for ANY kite to perform.Gunnar's exaggerations and lies can be found at viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2361421 This is typical of the ridiculous and unsubstantiated claims made by ram lovers. Kitesurfing in under 5 knots.......laughable.

g) Objective Testing
-- A variety of kites were tested in light wind conditions in San Diego a few years ago viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2319439&hilit=ram+a ... +san+diego . Despite the ridiculous over-hyped claims from Flysurfer reps like Ted Bautista, Flysurfer ram air kites crashed and burned. The overall consensus was that Flysurfer ram air kites are ok in light wind, but they turn VERY SLOWLY. The overall impression was that there are much better inflatables. It's interesting that a lot of the ram air guys who were excited about this showdown were remarkably SILENT afterwards, in particular, Ted Bautista, the U.S. rep for Flysurfer. His alpha-male chest-beating rants in the lead up to this showdown almost defied belief.
For an example of the LIES that ram lovers tell about their kites, checkout viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2350141&p=539227#p539227
h ) Flysurfer and Light Winds
See the thread about the poor light wind properties of Flysurfer viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2349064

i) Peter Frank's opinion
Peter Frank, a well respected commentator on the sport, says 8-9 knots is the bare minimum. Details can be read at viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2365531

What is the lowest wind condition I can go kitesurfing and what is the best kite brand and size for it?

It depends a lot on your weight, how low you can go.

If you are "average" around 80kg, the lowest you can go will be around 5m/s (10knots) with the right kite and board.

If you are REALLY experienced, you will be able to push the lower limit down to about 8-9 knots, but this is the absolute lowest wind possible to kitesurf in (holding ground/going upwind) with average weight IMO.

We are talking about 14-17m2 typical SLE kites and raceboards here

And talking about EXACTLY how "low you can go" is just pure bullshit - as you can not measure the windspeed at the kite, which is the only true value for this.

Sometimes you have a huge windgradient, sometimes a small one, and air temperature and height also influences.

But around 10knots is the limit for most kitesurfers, and just a small tad lower for the "extreme" ones


When you talk about windspeed - where is it measured then ?
At headheight, maybe around 2 meter above the water ?
Or at 10 meter height, which is our (Denmark) meterological standard height for wind measurements ?
There is a difference of typical 2 knots, so VERY important.


My point is - always take those claiming "this and that" as their minimum wind speed with a grain of salt

But the answer to your question would IMO be around or just below 10 knots measured at 2 meters height (in normal "summer" temperatures), and it is not dependant on brand, as many brands has excellent kites for this - and more and more has raceboards now too.

I can understand you dont kitesurf yet - but interested in the low level ?

Typically, you can start just a tad earlier than a really skilled 12m2 formula windsurfer, but almost the same planing level - maybe this makes more sense to you if used to windsurfing ?

Hope this helps

Peter

[OzBungy]

The short answer is, we don't know.

I have the 2010 Crossbow 13 and it is a great kite. I used to use the Switchblade 12 and it too was a great kite.

I have flown the 2011 XB 11 and it feels really nice. It feels a bit more powerful than the 2010. I am about to upgrade to a 2011 XB 13 when I sell my current 13.

The consensus view is that the SB has more grunt than the XB. Certainly when I switched to the XB is felt a bit gutless. As I got more attuned to flying it I liked it more and more.

Relaunchability is not important for lightwind kiting. If the wind is truly light then nothing will relaunch. The most important thing is to not crash the kite in the first place. A kite that can be tuned to not stall, that you can fly in figure-8s in near zero wind, is ideal for for light wind riding. The 2010 XB 13 is really good for this.

The board is far more important for light wind performance. A race board is great for performance, but not so good for ease of use. It is much harder to keep a kite flying if your are messing around with trying to turn a race board.

A good lightwind TT is ideal for most of us. The performance is still quite good but you can forget about the board and concentrate on the kite when the wind drops out.

[Kamikuza]

I've got a 2011 XB 13 but the only thing I can compare it to is my 2010 XB 16 ... and we haven't had enough wind to fly either since my 13 arrived it sure is pretty though

[duloid]

first you you ignore PMU's bullshit ...

My humble opinion and few years of experience is different then his, Flysurfer Speed 1,2,3 genereation are performing very well in light winds .. light wind 7, 8 - 13 knots ..

Specially the Speed 2's are total rocks .... and looks like Speed 3 21m ....too

I don't want to tell you how great are they .... just go to the beach when is a light wind day and only Flysurfers are crusing around ....... saw that many many times... I'm not kite expert , I'm just telling you what I've seen every summer, when the winds are light..

once I was ridding my Speed 2 12m and having a blast, guy with Best Waroo 20 or 21m ... was lauchinch the kite for half an hour ... and after he rode 10minutes downwind and walked back..... tried again .... crushed the kite and had to swim back....
when I told him what size of kite I have .... he coudn't belive it ... I don't know the wind speed that day, but I don't even care... if it's 8 or 12 ...

as soon as I'm ridding and everybody else are sitting on the beach I don't need to measure the wind and proof the low end of Flysurfers ...

another story was similar.... recently purchased Speed 3 15 deluxe ... still kept Speed 1.5 17m SA ... one day got to the beach and 15 kites setted up. nobody ridding ...

unpacked Speed 3 and jumped to the water... I was crusing, juming having fun... later on .. friend of my came , pumped his kite and tried to launch it... nothing .... I offered him the 17m, explained how the relauch the kite from water and, without previous experience he was ridding right away ..

jumping, crusing .... I just heard him screaming and laughing .... jumping high with lot of hang time...
after that he said that kite is slow, but nothing can beat the light wind performance..

later the same day, another guy with Ozone zaphyr 17m came , pumped it up and the same story 3 people coudn't put the kite is the air.. while I and my friend were re-launching the kites from water.. finally thay made it fly ........ 5 minutes.... kite crashed ... 30 minutes of relauching and 30 minutes of swimming back... so this is my answer for light wind kite..

and stories like this are more when enough ..

I don't care what PMU and others are saying ..... I ride , they cry .... no matter what the windmeter is saying, how much kg of air is in the kite I don't care ......as soon as I'm ridding having fun , that's it and everybody else are sitting on the beach and wondering what kind of kite and what size is it ...

try one and you will see ...
PMU don't get offeded as usually ..... I just have different opinion and what more different personal experience on water , not behing the computer browsing net and looking for BS about Flysurfer ..

thanks.

[2cents worth]

First of all foil is superior in marginal wind, but i'll still go for an inflatable due to safety concern, having fun out there is great, but to be back in time for dinner with my family not waiting for rescue in the dark is even more important. I once spent 2 hours swimming back to shore with an inflatable, with foil i guess i would have died.

Second, i would first pick my board before kite. What i really need is something like RRD's Domingo board, this fish board with 3 fins is excellent in marginal wind condition. I believe there is similar board from other brands, though not that many. I kite when it is only 6~7 knots with a 10m ( i'm 70kg and the kite barely hang), while others just sit and watch me. I may be extreme because i kite no matter what, as long as i reach the beach i will kite. If you have a good board you may reduce the size of your kite, it is no fun trying to relaunch your 15m kite in marginal wind, plus i hate pumping kite.

Third, for kite i would pick a delta design, it has better low end compare to bow (ex SB). Now almost every brand introduce a delta in their offering, it is not difficult to find one that suit you. Another plus point for delta is that it is much easier to relaunch than bow.

Forth, if you really want to stick to Cab, then go for XBow, in my opinion the 2011 SB has design defect. You should see for your self with your own eyes, check out the kites before your final decision.

[experienced1]

2011 Cabrinha XB relaunches easier than the 2010. In fact, the 2011 SB relaunches easier than the 2010. Agreed, the SB feels like more grunt, however, the XB has more range
steve

[IWB2]

Barneskite28,
I haven't tried the 2011 Xbow 13m but I have tried previous years models. I have tried the 2011 SB 14m. The lowend power of the SB14m is very good and seems similar to prior years Xbow 13m. The SB14 is vey stable and handles very light winds. To maximize the lowend range of the kite, it is key to use a very efficient light wind board. When the winds become very light, water relaunching for any kite I am sure will be much more technical. My theory is that when winds are ultra light, just make every effort to keep the kite flying. Advanced riders will naturally have better skills to keep the kite flying in very light winds. It would be interesting to find out if there is any difference in the upwind factor between the 2011 Crossbow 13m and 2011 Switchblade14. When winds are really light I personally want to make sure I maximize my upwind riding, so that it is still possible to throw moves without loosing too much ground. I think your choice between the 2 bow kites really comes down to your riding style. The new 2011 bars with the recoil system work great in light winds with the big kites. To sum it up, the 2011 Switchblade 14m is a great light wind weapon!!