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Cost Breakdown of Kite Package - Online Only vs Shop

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Jdizzle
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Re: Cost Breakdown of Kite Package - Online Only vs Shop

Postby Jdizzle » Tue May 24, 2011 8:20 pm

Craz Z wrote: I really dont think the consumers owe a shop anything its the manufacturers owe it to the shop.
Exactly, after all it is the shops that are actually selling the kites....making the money for the manufacturer :roll:

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Re: Cost Breakdown of Kite Package - Online Only vs Shop

Postby TooMuchEpoxy » Tue May 24, 2011 8:34 pm

As far as supporting local shops and the kiting community i do one thing, send my friends who are new to kiting to a shop for lessons rather than teach them myself. This ensures safe beaches, quality instruction, and helps the shops. I also send unskilled people who are new to the sport to shops for lessons. I'm a kiter - that does not make me an instructor.

This, I feel is the role of shops for the kiting community, to mitigate the problems caused by inexperienced kiters and to represent the interests of these kiters to political entities which could instate a ban. (Keep the unskilled in line, fight the ban when they do step out of line) - In this case it is our responsibility to enforce this on out beaches, educate new kiters by sending them to qualified instructors.

I don't know if i feel the need for the shops as retail entities. I feel that, for the consumer, there is one major justification for a retail location, the ability to demo gear before you buy. This need even is filled by information gained by forums like this as well as other kiters in the community allowing others to demo their gear.

For my entire life i've been involved with sports which require expensive, disposable, gear. Sailing, windsurfing, and kite surfing. From my experience buying sails i've found that most people who sell them are completely crazy and not to be trusted. We all know shop owners who are great and i'm not saying that this is the rule, but the more someone's paycheck is tied to gear the more you hear this:

"Oho, you've got last year's <insert kite model>. That ain't shit. The new <insert kite model> is total redesigned. Way more direct, unreal low end."
"You just sold me this kite a month ago?!?!"

I just don't trust anyone trying to sell gear. There has to be a better way to support the local kiting community...

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Re: Cost Breakdown of Kite Package - Online Only vs Shop

Postby KitePaddleSurf » Tue May 24, 2011 8:38 pm

I don't think I have bashed any company or person. I brought up my perspective, as I think that there should be more service involved in selling a potentially power kite to a customer, especially a beginner and community support. One model offers this service, the other doesn't.

If this isn't the place for me to discuss my concerns on impacts that this direction of distribution may have on the local beaches, then I guess I am not sure where it is.

There seems to be alot of aggression aimed at shop owners here which I wasn't expecting. I haven't named names... and have just talked business models and where that path could lead.

My point is that if all things being equal in price, performance and quality, consider the service side of things as a factor as well.

As LF has shown with the mentioned package, there are more affordable options already out there.... and there are more... that might be available from a shop that also helps support the places you and others ride. As the years go on, I would be ecstatic to see manufacturers come out with kites that are more affordable while still supporting those shops that provide a service to the customer and kiteboarding community.

That's about all I can say. No bashing. No name calling.. Just a perspective.

I personally don't think that local shops will go away, and if there are bad shops, I think that the market forces will take care of them.

Andy

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Re: Cost Breakdown of Kite Package - Online Only vs Shop

Postby Craz Z » Tue May 24, 2011 9:26 pm

Jdizzle wrote:
Craz Z wrote: I really dont think the consumers owe a shop anything its the manufacturers owe it to the shop.
Exactly, after all it is the shops that are actually selling the kites....making the money for the manufacturer :roll:

I guess i need to expand my short answer. What I meant was consumers dont owe a local shop a thing when there are better deals and other brands for cheaper which is the problem for owning a shop. ultimately why do the shops have all the risk and the manufacturers have very little. Why do shop owners hype products they sell and the manufactuerer remains silent.?


Andy
I don't think anyone is hating on shops I like them go to them buy some stuff just like everyone else but I don't see the logic of handing a extra tip to a local shop just cause they are there this is only on big purchases like a 2000$kite. Feel free to rape me on small purchases when my equipment is broke and you have it and i need it. thats all im saying.

I can understand your frustration and i know you're not alone the new direct to customer model may or may not hurt the shop biz we'll see but i can tell its not going to be like the way it is now. I often times wonder how you guys do it with all the secondary shit that goes on, used bro-deal off season. Its not your fault or anyones but i would throw some blame back at the manufactuerer as they got shop owners in this mess and while they still get all their margins you will be slashing yours to hang on.
Why does the shop have to pay for kites upfront or shortly after sale ahead of time to help plan the manufactuers production so they lose less money?
Why does the shop have to pay for demo's let people beat them and then try to sell at the end of the year to get their money back?
Why do shops have to sit on their hands and pay all the overhead during off-season?
Why do shops get even better discounts for volume securing the manufacturer to customer brand loyalty while the other brands get snuffed out cause they won't do the same. and if they did could you afford having another large load of kites that may or may not sell?
Why do shops exist when faced with all these potential loses when the manufacturer gets paid?

My hat is off to you guys keep up the good work

my equation is most people that buy fords look at the price shop, fly, buy whatever it takes to get a deal and the bentley owner writes a check never asks for a deal and is only concerned about what color he/she gets. most of us are ford owners :rollgrin:

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Re: Cost Breakdown of Kite Package - Online Only vs Shop

Postby Kamikuza » Wed May 25, 2011 1:22 am

Sure if the prices are the same, support your shop - I agree wholeheartedly.

But another problem with localization - how is a kite shop that is supported by say, 100 kiters going to be able to compete with an online store that sells to tens of thousands? The economics don't work ... unless the local shop ALSO has an online store and is selling around the country or world which is "stealing" business from other local kite shops etc etc.

You see, we're stuck with the internet and that's all there is to it - adapt or go extinct.

LF offering that deal is hoping to capitalize on return business ... IIRC most surveys indicate that people stick with the brand they learned on and tend to be reasonably brand-loyal : so if LF gets you hooked on a cheap package, you're more likely to buy other kites at the regular price. It's just another marketing tactic.

Our local spot has a 'club house' just over the road and I'd bet dollars to donuts that the proprietor makes more money from annual carparking fees and lessons than he does from selling kites, even in this captive market. Which is fine by me, I'm happy to pay the fee cos we get secure storage (if you want it), a reasonable crapper, changing rooms and best of all - hot showers!

IMHO a better model would be to return to the way they sold electronics here - a shop keeper with bright glossy catalogs, a bit of demo stock provided by the manufacturer at no cost the shop keeper who can order stuff and get it delivered within the week ...

That's kind of what it's like here, but the back-up from the manufacturers is pathetic. Local Shop Guy has been waiting since middle of last year for a demo Zephyr (I bought the SA2 in the meantime, so there's one lost sale), I waited 9 months for a harness from Ozone before I gave up and ordered it from the US, other harness sellers only stock smaller sizes and won't even bother trying to order bigger ones for you ... that ain't right!

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Re: Cost Breakdown of Kite Package - Online Only vs Shop

Postby KitePaddleSurf » Wed May 25, 2011 1:48 am

Kamikuza wrote:
Our local spot has a 'club house' just over the road and I'd bet dollars to donuts that the proprietor makes more money from annual carparking fees and lessons than he does from selling kites, even in this captive market. Which is fine by me, I'm happy to pay the fee cos we get secure storage (if you want it), a reasonable crapper, changing rooms and best of all - hot showers!
Just curious about how much the fees are at your club house? Hot showers can be priceless... Maybe that's where all the money is in this sport!.... ;)

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Re: Cost Breakdown of Kite Package - Online Only vs Shop

Postby tautologies » Wed May 25, 2011 2:52 am

While I can understand your concern, I do think that this is really not a shop vs online argument since most shops today, like your own, are also selling online. I think I bought my gopro from you. So in this case you are actually on both sides of the argument, and I am guessing this thread is also a way for you to showcase your shop (which is fine).

The main problem for shops, I guess, is that there is much more information out there. When there is more information it is harder to make a customer pay a premium on the merchandise.

Personally I think it is worth paying a little extra for something I get faster. Most people are like this, which is why Amazon is offering free shipping.

Here are some suggestions for shop owners:

The customer is not out to screw you. S/he wants to buy a given product or perceived equal for a minimum. Leaving money on the table is silly for anyone. Now the product is NOT only the kite, and herein lies your opportunity to sell more kites. The product is the whole purchasing experience.

You as a shop owner have to take every chance you have to form and strengthen customer relationships. There are many way of doing this outside of price on the product.

1. Have a two tiered price model: Getting the product now = premium on the price as storing the product costs, and adds risk. Pre-orders gets a discount as it lowers the risk of unsold product. Have the products in stock. Have a clear pricing model, follow it.

2. Have all the minor things..fins, repair, tshirt, boardshorts, screws..let the customer know he can find it in your store. He will come every time he needs something.

3, Be ultra professional in every part of the transaction. Make sure you manage reputation in every aspect. Your staff should be trained, without attitude and smiling.

4. Have a way to contact your current customers for sales and events etc.

5. Be HIGHLY involved in the local scene. This is how you form new


Personally I think people selling low end brands out of their cars is much more of a threat than any online shop.

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Re: Cost Breakdown of Kite Package - Online Only vs Shop

Postby KitePaddleSurf » Wed May 25, 2011 3:03 am

You are correct on pretty much everything you say... but the gist of what I am getting at is this. Online sales aren't bad. I don't think shopping around is bad. Find the right product at the right price......... but also consider if that company you choose do do business with is also supporting the ktieboarding community, either locally, or at large.

Ie... take Kitty Hawk Kites.... They help support access in Hatteras.... which affects me as a consumer, as I visit the Outer Banks each year and love the access they helped provide.

If there is another company out there that doesn't help provide access, support, or lessons with some of their profits..........and all else being the same.... I am going to choose the company that is out there trying to promote the sport in a safe manner.

Thats it.



tautologies wrote:While I can understand your concern, I do think that this is really not a shop vs online argument since most shops today, like your own, are also selling online. I think I bought my gopro from you. So in this case you are actually on both sides of the argument, and I am guessing this thread is also a way for you to showcase your shop (which is fine).

The main problem for shops, I guess, is that there is much more information out there. When there is more information it is harder to make a customer pay a premium on the merchandise.

Personally I think it is worth paying a little extra for something I get faster. Most people are like this, which is why Amazon is offering free shipping.

Here are some suggestions for shop owners:

The customer is not out to screw you. S/he wants to buy a given product or perceived equal for a minimum. Leaving money on the table is silly for anyone. Now the product is NOT only the kite, and herein lies your opportunity to sell more kites. The product is the whole purchasing experience.

You as a shop owner have to take every chance you have to form and strengthen customer relationships. There are many way of doing this outside of price on the product.

1. Have a two tiered price model: Getting the product now = premium on the price as storing the product costs, and adds risk. Pre-orders gets a discount as it lowers the risk of unsold product. Have the products in stock. Have a clear pricing model, follow it.

2. Have all the minor things..fins, repair, tshirt, boardshorts, screws..let the customer know he can find it in your store. He will come every time he needs something.

3, Be ultra professional in every part of the transaction. Make sure you manage reputation in every aspect. Your staff should be trained, without attitude and smiling.

4. Have a way to contact your current customers for sales and events etc.

5. Be HIGHLY involved in the local scene. This is how you form new


Personally I think people selling low end brands out of their cars is much more of a threat than any online shop.

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Re: Cost Breakdown of Kite Package - Online Only vs Shop

Postby KiteCulture » Wed May 25, 2011 3:13 am

i have e-mails from the factories that manufacture the brands offering complete kite for $300 US, plus shipping. They are taking the brands designs and selling kites with no graphics from what I can tell...or close to it. So if they make them for $300 and we pay $1700...... I understand there are costs for marketing, design and so on. But the manufacturing cost is low.

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Re: Cost Breakdown of Kite Package - Online Only vs Shop

Postby tautologies » Wed May 25, 2011 3:55 am

KiteCulture wrote:i have e-mails from the factories that manufacture the brands offering complete kite for $300 US, plus shipping. They are taking the brands designs and selling kites with no graphics from what I can tell...or close to it. So if they make them for $300 and we pay $1700...... I understand there are costs for marketing, design and so on. But the manufacturing cost is low.
How many times are we going to go through this?

China kites are shit, and not at all close to anything any company is producing.

Production cost though I don't know the exact details, I do think we, in the past have been doing pretty good ballpark speculations....
To go with an analogous situation. Recently raw food prices went up in Africa by 8-10%. This caused huge problems in the region is part of why there is a lot of unrest (in addition to unemployment).

Did you see your food prices go up? Why not? Because the actual cost of food of what you buy and consume is negligible to the rest of the process of getting the food on your table including packing, transport and marketing. Why do you complain with kites when just about everything you buy has the same model?

If you cut R & D how would our kites look today? Would they survive rolling in the waves? Would you survive a squall? R & D will, in addition to letting you know it exists (ie. marketing) be the bigger cost. Suddenly your kites are $500-$600. Add a small . Now it has to be shipped to the distributors (if they still exist for your favorite brand). They want a 20+% cut. They ship the kites to the shops, who wants another 25-30%. $300 becomes $1700 faster than you can say "If you look at the details and compare to just about any other pricing model the kiteboarding industry price their products the same way everybody else are..and it is reasonable unless you complain the same way for everything you buy".

Now the real way to get cheaper kites is to have fewer companies selling more kites. It's pretty simple really. It is called economies of scale.

:-)


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