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Conflict with beach user.....you can't please everyone.

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plummet
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Re: Conflict with beach user.....you can't please everyone.

Postby plummet » Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:46 pm

I have it pretty good here. very little conflict at all. There is small amounts on occusions. Usually with beach users that have no knowledge of the enormous power of kites.

I was solo launching teathered style this guy with his 3 year old walks down and sits 3 meters directly downwind behind my kite. I ask him to politly to move down the beach a few more meters (its a 2km long beach) because if the launch goes wrong he and his child could possibly be hit. He does move on but give he this the biggest "what an arsewhole" scowl.

Other times surfers have paddle into the spot that i'm kiting and random users set up on the beach right in the middle of were i am landboarding.

Most of the time I bugger off to a different spot. BUT if no other spot is available possession is 9/10ths of the law. If your there first then its your spot unless its officially designated for someone else. In some instances I keep on kiting if other users choose to encroach on my area when i'm there first they must surely accept that I will still carry on with my activity.

Here's a quick vid that explains how the guys do things over in Aus.


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Re: Conflict with beach user.....you can't please everyone.

Postby RichardM » Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:04 pm

plummet wrote:I have it pretty good here. very little conflict at all. There is small amounts on occusions. Usually with beach users that have no knowledge of the enormous power of kites.

I was solo launching teathered style this guy with his 3 year old walks down and sits 3 meters directly downwind behind my kite. I ask him to politly to move down the beach a few more meters (its a 2km long beach) because if the launch goes wrong he and his child could possibly be hit. He does move on but give he this the biggest "what an arsewhole" scowl.

Other times surfers have paddle into the spot that i'm kiting and random users set up on the beach right in the middle of were i am landboarding.

Most of the time I bugger off to a different spot. BUT if no other spot is available possession is 9/10ths of the law. If your there first then its your spot unless its officially designated for someone else. In some instances I keep on kiting if other users choose to encroach on my area when i'm there first they must surely accept that I will still carry on with my activity.

................
plummet:

Since I have no specific knowledge of Aus attitudes and policies regarding the use of PUBLIC recreational resources, I can not dispute your contention that “..possession is 9/10ths of the law.” although I think it is unlikely.

However, each of the situations you describe where you annoy or inconvenience any of the other users in ANY way are the EXACT type of actions which lead to bans in supposedly civilized places such as southern California where public resource utilization must be prioritized in order to maximize benefits for the general public (which includes kiters).

Richard M.
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Last edited by RichardM on Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Conflict with beach user.....you can't please everyone.

Postby Jono 111 » Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:10 pm

.....and at the local meeting where you are defending your spot, you think youre better placed having threatened to rape somebody (male or female) than having warned somebody constructively about the risk of parking their boat in the launch area?

what a load of nonsense.

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Re: Conflict with beach user.....you can't please everyone.

Postby RichardM » Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:27 pm

Jono 111 wrote:.....and at the local meeting where you are defending your spot, you think youre better placed having threatened to rape somebody (male or female) than having warned somebody constructively about the risk of parking their boat in the launch area?

what a load of nonsense.
Jono111:

I was using exaggeration to emphasize the point that threatening non-kiters with harm BECAUSE of the inherent dangers associated with kiting is ESPECIALLY bad because you’re giving the BEST ammunition to someone who is MOST LIKELY to use it.

However, to answer your specific question:

If it meant that the ONLY issue raised at the theoretical meeting was that there was a singular homicidal rapist kiter running loose and the issue of danger due to kiting therefore did not arise, then YES, it would be MUCH better. Unless somebody was alleging that kiting turns people into homicidal rapists, there would be NO REASON whatsoever for the incident to have any impact at all upon any other kiter.

Richard M.
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plummet
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Re: Conflict with beach user.....you can't please everyone.

Postby plummet » Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:05 am

In the situations I describe the only guy that was annoyed was the guy I asked to move his child out of harms way. In fact I was doing him a favour. I could have been a tool and launched without asking him to move. But i deemed that to be unsafe even though it was a mild day and the chance of failure was minimal.

In the other situations the users are in general ablivious to the dangers of kites an therefore don't care. The people that set up right next to you are generally enthusiastic and enjoy watching and yell out with encouragement when you bust moves.

Landboarding is another fish all together you do kite past other beach users on a regular basis. This is something kitesurfers can't fathom. Theres kids, walkers, dogs, boulders, driftwood sun bathers all using the same spot. But I am the lone landboarder on my 2km long beach so when I do pass other users I do it safely and inteligently.

The biggest trouble we have at out local is in summer when the swimmers come and the patrolled flagged area is right in the middle of our year round launch/land spot. Locals and experienced guys launch downwind and then tack away from the swimming area. However some out of towners sometimes fange through the flagged area and learners can loose control of there kites and send them into the flagged area.

PS I'm in NZ. I was taking the piss with the chopper upload.

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Re: Conflict with beach user.....you can't please everyone.

Postby POACHER » Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:06 am

Richard M,
So you're interpreting us telling someone that being around launching/landing kites for their own and their family's safety is a threat? That's your perspective mate, and that's fine. Personally I don't interpret that as a threat at all.

The long and the short of this thread is simple. There is ONE spot to use for kiting in a SW. A boater came along and plonked his shit in the launch/land area, I asked about as nicely as someone can if he could PLEASE move the boat 30 yards west. He ignored our request. We kept riding. He then approached, berated us and told us he shouldn't have to move, we simply explained the potential risk. He bitched some more and left. We never told him to leave. We offered to share the beach that we were at first. We never became belligerent or rude. But in your eyes to preserve the good name of kiting, we were supposed to pack up our shit on a perfect day and just go home because some jackhole decides it's his turn to use the spot?

f*** that noise. I'm willing to bet the 99% of kiters here would have done the same. I'm not trying to get spots or access closed. The point I'm making here at all is that you are NEVER going to keep everyone happy with sharing beaches because some people are just assholes. Good for you Richard M for being so passive that you'll yield to any other beach goer and just go home. You must have tons of places to ride without other people. I don't have the places to ride, time or patience to just leave because of one uncommunicative knob.

So answer this for me: If I was doing a snorkel/scuba class here or a kayak demo and this guy came up and did the same thing - what should I do? Should I pack up and go home? Ask him to please move down the beach? Choke slam him for just being a douche? I'm curious as to see if there is a double standard for kiters. Don't I have as much right to use the space as others?

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Re: Conflict with beach user.....you can't please everyone.

Postby mr_daruman » Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:21 am

Why turn this into a LAW fiasco???
These types of problems can be overcome by just common sense and some basic etiquette by both individuals. I can guarantee you if this happened in Japan, 99% the leisure boat would completely understand and gladly move away so everyone can enjoy the area (unless were talking about a fishing boat..)
The boater is clearly being an a$$ by moving in, ignoring, then being rude...the law or not the law. The kiters where there first enjoying the area and for everyone to enjoy themselves the boater just needed to move a little.
Being considerate each other can overcome any laws and banning.

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Re: Conflict with beach user.....you can't please everyone.

Postby JBD » Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:34 am

Poacher you never know maybe the boater is one of the duck hunters I had my run in with. I know he has been on a war path against kiters since my run in with him.

RichardM you can't compare access threats in the Great Lakes to California. They are completely different animals. Unlike Cali the Great Lakes do not have the lifeguard Gestapo watching every move they make. Access there is much more stable there than here. Authorities deal with crossover issues everyday and never threaten access they simply stress that everybody needs to share.

Poacher what lake are you riding on? I really miss the kiting vibe on the Great Lakes.

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Re: Conflict with beach user.....you can't please everyone.

Postby RichardM » Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:53 am

POACHER wrote:Richard M,
1. So you're interpreting us telling someone that being around launching/landing kites for their own and their family's safety is a threat? That's your perspective mate, and that's fine. Personally I don't interpret that as a threat at all.

The long and the short of this thread is simple. There is ONE spot to use for kiting in a SW. A boater came along and plonked his shit in the launch/land area, I asked about as nicely as someone can if he could PLEASE move the boat 30 yards west. He ignored our request. 2. We kept riding. He then approached, berated us and 3. told us he shouldn't have to move, we simply 4. explained the potential risk. He bitched some more and left. 5. We never told him to leave. We offered to share the beach that we were at first. We never became belligerent or rude. But in your eyes to preserve the good name of kiting, we were supposed to 6. pack up our shit on a perfect day and just go home because some jackhole decides it's his turn to use the spot?

f*** that noise. I'm willing to bet the 7. 99% of kiters here would have done the same. I'm not trying to get spots or access closed. The point I'm making here at all is that you are NEVER going to keep everyone happy with sharing beaches because some people are just assholes. Good for you Richard M for being so passive that you'll yield to any other beach goer and just go home. You must have tons of places to ride without other people. I don't have the places to ride, time or patience to just leave because of one uncommunicative knob.

So answer this for me: If I was doing 8. a snorkel/scuba class here or a kayak demo and this guy came up and did the same thing – 9. what should I do? Should I pack up and go home? Ask him to please move down the beach? Choke slam him for just being a douche? I'm curious as to see if there is a double standard for kiters. 10. Don't I have as much right to use the space as others?
poacher:

1. Please don’t misstate my position. If you had a superior right to use the area for kiting than he did for his activity, there would be no problem with your explaining the dangers. However, as explained below, you do NOT. Furthermore, even if you did, if he was still uncooperative, you still have no right whatsoever to either actually put them in danger or give them the impression that they are in danger. Your ONLY recourse would be to attempt to have the authority (which would necessarily confirm your superior right), remove them.

2. You wrongly either actually put them in danger and/or annoyed them by making them concerned about seemingly being in danger.

3. He was ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. As explained below, he had a superior right to use the resource.

4. You explained that if he did not comply and move that you would continue to endanger them with YOUR ACTIONS. This is an obvious threat. At best, you could say it is implied rather than overt.

5. Completely immaterial. If someone was ruining your day by shooting at the ground around you, you’d probably leave because of it and the fact that they didn’t tell you to leave changes NOTHING.

6. Although you were not obligated to “ pack up our shit on a perfect day and just go home”, you were obligated to cease any kiting activities which interfered with his superior right of use.

7. This is distressingly sad because if even 5% of kiters do so, access will continue to be lost. If any majority do so, access will evaporate.

8. These are poor examples because they are both commercial in nature and if not authorized are probably illegal and if authorized, would probably have a superior right (depending on the specific authorization).

Therefore, for the sake of your example, lets assume you’re doing these activities recreationally (like your kiting). In this case there isn’t any easy way to determine use preference and it would hinge on any specific park rules or have to be settled by the authority.

9. If you thought you had the superior right, convince him. If unable to convince him attempt to get enough info to identify him to the authority and file a complaint. In the meantime, move.

10. Unless you have been told by the authority that you have a superior right to use the area and supposedly other uses are not allowed or must yield to kiters, then when conflicts such as yours arise, and the authority must take some action due to complaints, almost always the result will be either regulation or more likely, banning of kiting.

This is because the authority is tasked with the job of theoretically maximizing the beneficial use of the resource, usually for the maximum number of individuals (essentially, voters).

Some of the criteria which an authority must necessarily consider to accomplish this goal include:

1. Is the use dangerous to OTHER users? (To what degree (compared to other uses?)
2. Is the use dangerous to the PARTICIPANTS? (To what degree (compared to other uses?)
3. How much space does the activity require per participant? In total?
4. Is the use compatible with other uses or does it prevent other concurrent uses?
5. Will it have any adverse environmental effects?
6. And MOST IMPORTANTLY, in order for the use to be permitted in a way that there are minimal adverse impacts upon any significant number of OTHER users, will extra WORK be required on the part of the authority? In the case of kiting this usually means that new rules and regulations need to be created from scratch and then implemented in order to keep the irresponsible kiters from interfering with the vastly larger number of much less problematic users.

Except for #5, kiting will almost always be FAR AND AWAY at the TOP of each consideration and ESPECIALLY regarding number 6. Obviously, most bureaucrats will just take the much simpler action of banning ALL kiting rather than doing the work involved in #6.

Although you’ll see from my many posts on this subject that I believe in trying to FORCE the bureaucrats to do their job such that a reasonable accommodation can be made such that kiters can use the resource as much as possible, you’ll find that the vast majority of other posters do not agree with this concept.

At any rate, you can either understand and accept the concept of highest and best use regarding recreational resources which means EVERYONE ELSE has priority or you can aggravate non-kiters by wrongly asserting a superior right. In which case, you can expect that non-kiter complaints will close off access.

Richard M.
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plummet
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Re: Conflict with beach user.....you can't please everyone.

Postby plummet » Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:44 am

RichardM wrote:
POACHER wrote:Richard M,
1. So you're interpreting us telling someone that being around launching/landing kites for their own and their family's safety is a threat? That's your perspective mate, and that's fine. Personally I don't interpret that as a threat at all.

The long and the short of this thread is simple. There is ONE spot to use for kiting in a SW. A boater came along and plonked his shit in the launch/land area, I asked about as nicely as someone can if he could PLEASE move the boat 30 yards west. He ignored our request. 2. We kept riding. He then approached, berated us and 3. told us he shouldn't have to move, we simply 4. explained the potential risk. He bitched some more and left. 5. We never told him to leave. We offered to share the beach that we were at first. We never became belligerent or rude. But in your eyes to preserve the good name of kiting, we were supposed to 6. pack up our shit on a perfect day and just go home because some jackhole decides it's his turn to use the spot?

f*** that noise. I'm willing to bet the 7. 99% of kiters here would have done the same. I'm not trying to get spots or access closed. The point I'm making here at all is that you are NEVER going to keep everyone happy with sharing beaches because some people are just assholes. Good for you Richard M for being so passive that you'll yield to any other beach goer and just go home. You must have tons of places to ride without other people. I don't have the places to ride, time or patience to just leave because of one uncommunicative knob.

So answer this for me: If I was doing 8. a snorkel/scuba class here or a kayak demo and this guy came up and did the same thing – 9. what should I do? Should I pack up and go home? Ask him to please move down the beach? Choke slam him for just being a douche? I'm curious as to see if there is a double standard for kiters. 10. Don't I have as much right to use the space as others?
poacher:

1. Please don’t misstate my position. If you had a superior right to use the area for kiting than he did for his activity, there would be no problem with your explaining the dangers. However, as explained below, you do NOT. Furthermore, even if you did, if he was still uncooperative, you still have no right whatsoever to either actually put them in danger or give them the impression that they are in danger. Your ONLY recourse would be to attempt to have the authority (which would necessarily confirm your superior right), remove them.

2. You wrongly either actually put them in danger and/or annoyed them by making them concerned about seemingly being in danger.

3. He was ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. As explained below, he had a superior right to use the resource.

4. You explained that if he did not comply and move that you would continue to endanger them with YOUR ACTIONS. This is an obvious threat. At best, you could say it is implied rather than overt.

5. Completely immaterial. If someone was ruining your day by shooting at the ground around you, you’d probably leave because of it and the fact that they didn’t tell you to leave changes NOTHING.

6. Although you were not obligated to “ pack up our shit on a perfect day and just go home”, you were obligated to cease any kiting activities which interfered with his superior right of use.

7. This is distressingly sad because if even 5% of kiters do so, access will continue to be lost. If any majority do so, access will evaporate.

8. These are poor examples because they are both commercial in nature and if not authorized are probably illegal and if authorized, would probably have a superior right (depending on the specific authorization).

Therefore, for the sake of your example, lets assume you’re doing these activities recreationally (like your kiting). In this case there isn’t any easy way to determine use preference and it would hinge on any specific park rules or have to be settled by the authority.

9. If you thought you had the superior right, convince him. If unable to convince him attempt to get enough info to identify him to the authority and file a complaint. In the meantime, move.

10. Unless you have been told by the authority that you have a superior right to use the area and supposedly other uses are not allowed or must yield to kiters, then when conflicts such as yours arise, and the authority must take some action due to complaints, almost always the result will be either regulation or more likely, banning of kiting.

This is because the authority is tasked with the job of theoretically maximizing the beneficial use of the resource, usually for the maximum number of individuals (essentially, voters).

Some of the criteria which an authority must necessarily consider to accomplish this goal include:

1. Is the use dangerous to OTHER users? (To what degree (compared to other uses?)
2. Is the use dangerous to the PARTICIPANTS? (To what degree (compared to other uses?)
3. How much space does the activity require per participant? In total?
4. Is the use compatible with other uses or does it prevent other concurrent uses?
5. Will it have any adverse environmental effects?
6. And MOST IMPORTANTLY, in order for the use to be permitted in a way that there are minimal adverse impacts upon any significant number of OTHER users, will extra WORK be required on the part of the authority? In the case of kiting this usually means that new rules and regulations need to be created from scratch and then implemented in order to keep the irresponsible kiters from interfering with the vastly larger number of much less problematic users.

Except for #5, kiting will almost always be FAR AND AWAY at the TOP of each consideration and ESPECIALLY regarding number 6. Obviously, most bureaucrats will just take the much simpler action of banning ALL kiting rather than doing the work involved in #6.

Although you’ll see from my many posts on this subject that I believe in trying to FORCE the bureaucrats to do their job such that a reasonable accommodation can be made such that kiters can use the resource as much as possible, you’ll find that the vast majority of other posters do not agree with this concept.

At any rate, you can either understand and accept the concept of highest and best use regarding recreational resources which means EVERYONE ELSE has priority or you can aggravate non-kiters by wrongly asserting a superior right. In which case, you can expect that non-kiter complaints will close off access.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET

wowa... obviously Richard is kiting in a tenious spot were any wiff of miss conduct leads to a banned location. I would hate to live in such and anal retentive location.

I thank the greek god of westerlies Zephurus for prividing me such a sweet unihibited location ubundant with swell, wind and little bueracracy.

You did nothing wrong in my eyes poacher. But perhaps next time just adjust your location on the water slightly keep kiting and bypass the confrontation all together. Surely there was some room downwind and behind the boat to roost up and down?

If not then a boat is a good sized object to jump over!!! no i'm just teasing! please ask permission of the boat owner before you start jumping their craft.

:cool2:


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