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Deathloop: 5th line safety on North Rebels just doesn't work

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davesails7
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Re: Deathloop: 5th line safety on North Rebels just doesn't

Postby davesails7 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:30 pm

SupaEZ wrote:Clear this up for us....which "single" line got wrapped around your bar end

I would imagine it would have the be one of the back lines in order to spin the kite like that
That was my initial thought, but if the center lines (depower line + fifth line) were wrapped around one side of the bar and you were still hooked in, the bar would turn and the kite would loop.

Actually, I think if a single back line was wrapped around the bar and you let go of the bar, the tension on either side of the bar would just even out with the bar in a turned position and the kite would stop looping.

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Re: Deathloop: 5th line safety on North Rebels just doesn't

Postby SupaEZ » Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:52 pm

davesails7 wrote: That was my initial thought, but if the center lines (depower line + fifth line) were wrapped around one side of the bar and you were still hooked in, the bar would turn and the kite would loop.
I think the depower line that has all the load of the kite' power just can't go slack and wrap a bar end

Maybe it is "only the red safety line attached to his leash" that flung over the bar and over a back line

Because if his kite was depowered a lot ( pretty windy he said) then the red line does slack quite a bit

It would have flung (leash - red line) over one bar end at impact when he hit the water in such wind

Probably a freak accident......that it stayed stuck like that if it is the case

I am sure more FULL DETAILS from the original poster will reveal the EXACT facts

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Re: Deathloop: 5th line safety on North Rebels just doesn't

Postby Toby » Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:05 am

A picture would be good to look at!

I think I know what it looks like, but mot sure.

Did the whole center part with 5th and depower wrapped around?

If so, would any safety system work, besides those connected to a steering line?

Happy nothing happened to you!!!

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Re: Deathloop: 5th line safety on North Rebels just doesn't

Postby vannibombonato » Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:19 am

Guys,
Will post all details tomorrow, I'm just back from an EPIC downwind from prea down to jeri, arrived right in front of the jeri dune right at sunset throwing some airs, that surely did make my day. Unforgettable.

Reading your replies, I'm honestly not able to say which exact line tangled, for sure was a back one. Regarding the bar going upwards, I think it didn't, it's just the leash in its full extensions that went up, I guess it was like what would happen if I were riding in suicide mode (which I wasn't).

Thinking about it, I guess this problem is bound to happen for any safety system that goes through the bar. I've flown wainmans before, and the leash is connected to a front without passing into the bar. Didn't like it from an estethic point of view, but the two times I had to release the kite went in perfect depower, which makes sense, because even if it throws another loop, e next one you will be being dragged attached only to one front line, placed above the depower, and you will be inevitably flagging it.

Bottom line, after today I think it's mandatory for the safety system to connect to front/5th without passing through a hole that can easily get jammed with other lines.

Anyway, all is good now, after I saw that the cl release didn't work I had already start reaching for my knife in case the leash release didn't work.

I also think this kind of experience should be teached somehow in school, if I were less experienced and haven't read before so much about death loops on the forum, I think i would simply have totally panicked, which you don't want to be while being thrown like a rag doll and drinking some ocean...well knowing at least the theory of what was happened and the potential dangers did make one hell of a difference. Di thanks to all that have shared their experiences before.

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Re: Deathloop: 5th line safety on North Rebels just doesn't

Postby edt » Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:42 am

vannibombonato wrote:this problem is bound to happen for any safety system that goes through the bar. I've flown wainmans before, and the leash is connected to a front without passing into the bar. Didn't like it from an estethic point of view, but the two times I had to release the kite went in perfect depower, which makes sense, because even if it throws another loop
Still don't understand. If you let the kite loop two or three times, it won't flag. You have to release when the kite loops the first time (maybe second time) or be prepared to ditch the kite. This is the same for every kite. Not sure why you think it matters if the flag out is inside or outside the bar.

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Re: Deathloop: 5th line safety on North Rebels just doesn't

Postby FredBGG » Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:58 am

vannibombonato wrote:

10 mins later i was back riding my way upwind to the starting point, albeit without the leash as it was stuck and coudln't fix it while on the beach.

Vanni
You should not have gone back out in overpowered conditions WITHOUT A LEASH :o

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Re: Deathloop: 5th line safety on North Rebels just doesn't

Postby ID » Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:12 am

vannibombonato,

when kite loops certain number of times, all the lines are twisted together under such a tension that safety line is not able to slide away to depower the kite. the more powered kite, more tension on the lines - less loops needed to cause this. the more powered kite, the more violent loops causing more tension on the lines

so if you do not release after first or second loop, does not matter what brand of bar/kite, if 4 or 5 lines, if safety line runs through the bar our outside, the safety is likely not to work, and the risk increases with every additional loop

also if you lose tension in lines during kite crash, or fall during the jump, or even during starting of the kite, if center line/safety line wrap around the bar - then chicken loop quick release safety will be compromised, and if they because of wrap around pull on one of the steering lines, loops may occur, does not matter what brand of bar/kite, if 4 or 5 lines

if you fly north on 5 lines, it is also important to have the 5th line correctly trimmed, so it is not hanging too loose under the Y.
being overpowered, and flying kite fully depowered on the trim strap may cause it become even longer, which can increase risk of tangles

safety line running outside bar also can cause tangles and kitemares, even more likely
just a few rotations in the same way during jumps or few loops can cause this system to totally entangle leash around bar and depower line and possibly also around the steerning lines... good luck then!
so don't rush to burn the 5th line and North like a witch while shouting it to the whole world...

that you went out after this without leash again suggest that you probably don't really care about safety, or do you believe 5th line should work its magic even without the leash?
you could have possibly killed or injured someone, should you loose kite again, in 25kts to be tangled in lines of kite flying away alone can be fatal...
would you then also defend yourself that you are experienced kiter, and it is North's fault and that with other brand this could not happen because statistics of your sessions and accidents very logically prove that?

but sincere credits to you that you draw attention of other kiters that this can happen, and that they should not hesitate to release early, so thanks for sharing the experience

it is often overestimating one's own skills, or false belief that this brand or that system is 'magic' in any situation, going hand in hand with lack of real understanding how things work that cause unnecessary accidents

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Re: Deathloop: 5th line safety on North Rebels just doesn't

Postby moffemand » Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:18 am

It is your own fault, when you wait so long with release the kite. No system is working with lines twisted around after some loops.

It happens to few time a year I have to release the kite totally, when the safty leash goes around the bar missing when missing a air pass.

Be happy you are not a virgin anymore.

Morten

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Re: Deathloop: 5th line safety on North Rebels just doesn't

Postby tony montana » Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:25 am

moffemand wrote:It is your own fault, when you wait so long with release the kite. No system is working with lines twisted around after some loops.

It happens to few time a year I have to release the kite totally, when the safty leash goes around the bar missing when missing a air pass.

Be happy you are not a virgin anymore.

Morten
Virgins in this sport are as rare as hens teeth LOL,Tony

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Re: Deathloop: 5th line safety on North Rebels just doesn't

Postby chilidip » Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:47 pm

Flying 5th line kites for years I've noticed that if you downloop and backroll predominately in 1 direction, the 5th line gets really spun up and comprimises the flagging ability with too much friction on the line as well. The North bar has a great swivel system above the chickenloop, so stop every so often and unspin your center lines.

BTW, nice job releasing and having a mental plan for safety!!!

Riding overpowered is extremely dangerous because shit can hit the fan in nanoseconds.

Enjoy the downwinjy to Tatajuba and the fresh fish by the lake 8)


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