Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims

[Dimitri M]

Personally I have no problem going up wind with the INFINITY v2 in (9 to 13 knots) because I know how to play with the kite and how to edge my board before getting too much apparent speed. It is just a technique that you need to acquire. For example 4 months ago I had a customer who was trying the INFINITY V2 in (9 to 12 knots). He was 225 lbs. So I gave him the INFINITY V2 with the OXYGEN 135x47cm Twin Tip board to demo. So he got on and was able to ride but was getting pulled down wind because of the power of the kite. So once he finally got back I gave him an intro on how to load on the board and how to be able to track up wind by using a fine line between power and speed of the board. So he took the kite back for a run and in no time he was tracking up wind with a big smile. I think this person has been kiting no more then a year but still did not about kiting in light wind conditions.
So again it is all about technique when it comes to light wind conditions. It is a totally different technique then using a 12 meter kite in 14 to 18 knots.

[Pump me up]

A number of Epic's apologists and pimps have been personally attacking several forum posters. To get this topic back on track, herewith a SUMMARY OF THE ISSUES

There are a LOT of bullshit claims by kite companies regarding light wind capabilities. NO kite will perform in < 7-8 knots. The owners and distributors of the Epic Infinity are among the worst offenders. To claim the Epic Infinity can perform in "2-4 knots" (even if it is with a SUP) is ridiculous and a blatant lie and leaves the company wide open to claims from disgruntled users.

WIND GRADIENT & FETCH
The use of anecdotal evidence to try to support a generalisation is always suspicious. Epic's owners continually posting videos & images of kites flying in conditions without whitecaps and claiming "5 knots" are misleading; obviously wind gradient http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_gradient and/or short wind "fetch" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetch_(geography) are involved.

RELATIVE KITE PERFORMANCE
The ONLY way to gauge the RELATIVE performance of kites in light winds is to fly them side-by-side, with similarly experienced riders and similar boards.

LIGHT WIND KITE DESIGN
It is simply not possible for the Epic Infinity (V1, 2, or 3) to surpass significantly the performance of every other light wind kite in existence. There is NOT enough energy for ANY kite to perform in "2-4 knots of wind". With BIG light wind kites, various modifications have been tested over many years: Fast-turning big kites need to be fat (i.e. lower aspect ration & long middle struts), but the payoff is poorer upwind ability and slightly inferior low-end. Narrower (high aspect ratio) kites go upwind better, but turn more slowly. e.g. Flysurfer's "Speeds" are very narrow, but very SLOW turning. There is no such thing as a fast-turning, ultra-low end, exceptional upwind, easily relaunchable kite with a lot of range; there's always a trade-off.

EPIC INFINITY'S DEEP LUFF CURVE CAUSES PROBLEMS

1. (for me) it sat too far back in the window making edging up wind almost impossible unless you were on a light wind specific board
2. and if you were on a light wind board it was easy to lose speed control since edging against it was near impossible … but it still yanked me downwind because it sits so far back in the window.

The problem with designing a ~16m kite (Infinity V2 and V3) for "light winds" is that the luff curve has to be very deep to "milk" as much low end as possible. This causes the kite to sit VERY deep in the window, leading to the problems "Laughingman" outlined, i.e. poor upwind ability, a tendency to yank the rider downwind, extremely poor top-end, and poor ability to absorb gusts.

For obvious reasons, a ~16m kite will NEVER have the low end of a larger kite. The Epic Infinity probably shouldn't even be called a "light wind kite"; 16m kites are more "light-medium" wind kites. To make up for the lack of surface area, the Infinity's designers have deepened the luff curve, with obvious NEGATIVE tradeoffs.

Epic Infinity V1 & V2 INFERIOR
The Epic V2 Infinity was tested alongside other light wind kites (e.g. North Dyno 18m) and was found to be inferior.

I've been riding a 2011 18m Dyno for the last few months and have been really impressed. I've ridden it while others rode…Epic Infinity…, so can compare low end by how I was able to get on the water vs. the others. Who knows what actual wind speeds were up in the air at the kite. I think side by side comparison is much more helpful than endless videos of a kite riding alone on glassy water.
vs. Infinity: Dyno was stable in the air, never fell out of the sky for 4 hours of light wind riding. Two guys with Infinities were struggling to keep their kites in the air most of the time.

Objective testing of previous versions of the "Infinity" showed it had inferior power to other kites in light winds: http://www.thekiteboarder.com/2011/05/e ... te-review/

I have video of the Infinity V2 in action from 5 to 10 knots real soon. Did I say 5 knots!!!! No way..... !

The Infinity V3 failed in 8 knots (see below). The V2 performing in 5k? Complete bullshit.

Epic Infinity V3 INFERIOR
The INFERIORITY of the Epic Infinity V3 was demonstrated conclusively in a head-to-head comparison with the 19m Core. It failed THE major criterion of light wind kite performance: the ability to get the rider going early in LIGHT winds.

I would have written (Dimitri M) a check right there and then if his kite was better than mine...but it was not. I did get going earlier in the light wind that we had 7-9k max avg 8k. But he needed 7-11kn avg 9k.......which never happened.

His kite needed more wind to get going.

I was 100 ft away from beach on a full plane in 8k. He was 10 ft away from the beach on a sub-plane working hard not to end up on beach also in 8k. Right before we crossed (dead onshore wind) … Made sure he saw me...i looked into the white of his eyes. Did a 6 ft air forward 1 1/2 transition with kite downloop to toeside and planed off on the other tack

For the short time we were both able to go out i did 5 type jumps/ transitions. Many with looping the kite effortlessly.

He was only able to get one 4ft air back roll transition and landed in an insufficient amount of water. He was then grounded.
End of story.

…the issue here is who is BS "ing" who here about LW performance.

I felt like i was riding against someone with a smaller size kite.....OOOPS i was !

Epic Infinity V3 Will LOSE Even More Low End
The Epic Infinity V3 is still being revised:

…we are still working on perfecting the High end of the INFINITY v3.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to give a kite more high end without compromising low end. Hence, the Epic Infinity V3 will become even more INFERIOR in light winds.

Epic Lies & Exaggerations
Epic's owners are well known to stretch the truth, e.g.:

Infinity V2 has the power of a 19 meter but turns like a 14 meter.

Compared to the Core19m kite, the Epic Infinity V3 was noticeably INFERIOR; it certainly didn't have the "power of a 19m".

At a recent visit to Cocoa Beach, Epic's owner claimed the ability to SUP-kite in:

3 to 6 knots

In response, the following was posted by a knowledgeable local:

... the Patrick Air Force Base windmeter reading (is) just a few miles upwind of Dimitri: Wind was SSW 200 degrees...that is why the ocean is so glassy...i should know i live here 30 years. He was out between 2 and 4 pm.... we see clearly that the wind was always more than........... 10 mph .......those are government's wind meters....very accurate...

Despite the claimed performance in "3-6k", quite clearly, the Epic Infinity cannot perform on a SUP until >10mph (9k).

EPIC SLAMS BLADE
Not only does Epic stretch the truth about the Infinity, it also unfairly slams its competitors:

The difference from the INFINITY V2 vs the FAT LADY is that the INFINITY v2 turns faster and has better pop. But the power is piratically the same after testing them.
Now the INFINITY V3 is something different.

Why did Momi design an inferior kite for Blade? I honestly think this claiming your kites are superior to everyone else's will only backfire. If it is better at one thing then it will be worse at something else, most people appreciate that kite design these days is about finely balanced trade-offs NOT one kite being better than another.

Light Wind Showdown
While the Epic Infinity V3 was shown to be INFERIOR to the Core 19m, a formal light-wind "showdown" amongst the biggest claimers (Flysurfer, Epic) and others (North, Core, Blade, Ozone, Slingshot, etc) would be one way to clear this up once and for all.

FAKE FORUM NAMES & ABUSE
Epic's supporters admit to creating fake personas on this forum, replete with the same retarded spelling, grammar, and syntax. The fake personas push Epic products & abuse anyone who DARES to question their claims. These fake personas, e.g. Kiteus Maximus (below), personally attack and vilify, unless, of course, you agree to stop criticising Epic kites:

Whatever dude. You created me. If you don't like me then stop creating me.

PMU - you really are stupid if you are resorting to walking backwards with a kite !!! … Otherwise "ALL" wind readings are BULLSHIT just like yourself !!

Of course, walking backwards with a kite is not a recognised way of testing its low-end, UNLESS you are making claims that it can fly in "2-4 knots". It would be EASY to test Epic's "2-4 knot" claim by putting up the Infinity in a school hall or similar & walking backwards at the standard walking velocity of 2.7 knots.

STOP THE BULLSHIT: RETURN THEIR KITES
There IS a simple way to put to rest ridiculous claims by Epic or any other kite company: BUY THEIR KITES. If they don't perform in 2-4 knots on a SUP or whatever - let alone below 7-8 knots (and they won't), then return them. A "class action" against these companies, perhaps using this forum as a meeting point, will force these companies to be more truthful.

Ignore the lies. Ignore the propaganda.
No kite can perform under 7-8 knots, let alone 2-4 knots.

Pumpy ………………………

[Dimitri M]

With all due respect Mr. Pumpy but did it ever occur to you that maybe you are the one who can't perform in these light wind conditions. A poor carpenter will blame his tools. I think you might need to get more kite experience to be able to perform in these light wind conditions because it has been proven so many times in how low wind the INFINITY v3 kite can perform. Now it is all up to you.

[Pump me up]

With all due respect Mr. Pumpy but did it ever occur to you that maybe you are the one who can't perform in these light wind conditions. A poor carpenter will blame his tools. I think you might need to get more kite experience to be able to perform in these light wind conditions because it has been proven so many times in how low wind the INFINITY v3 kite can perform. Now it is all up to you.

Hi Dimitri. Why not take all of this as constructive criticism? Rather than trying to compete with all the other ~16m light-medium wind kites out there (e.g. Blade Fat Lady, Naish Fly, Dyno 17m, Ozone Edge 17m, etc), why not make a REAL light wind kite, e.g. a fast turning 21m kite???

With your considerable marketing skills, flair for graphics, and undoubted interpersonal charm, you could really blow the light wind market apart with a TRUE light wind kite. You could create something that justifies the hype, that can actually backup (most of) your claims, and that will sell itself. Obviously there is a LOT of interest in light wind kiting at the moment and it's only set to grow. If you produce a truly great LW kite, you could dominate the marketplace.

Pumpy ……..

[Geronimo79]

No need for an better kite pumpy. The Infinity V2 is good. the V3 is accordingly even better. And for people that prefer best upwind ability should go for a 17m Racer. Not that hard to understand.
Next to the fact it flys perfectly well in 7-8 knots and according to you there is NO WAY ANY KITE can go under that anyways. So whats the point?

Stop bitching and go hug a tree.

[SupaEZ]

YOO-HOO YOO-HOO check this example how to make a LW SPECIFIC kite decision:

You get to the beach and 2 kites are pumped ready for you...the wind is 9kn / 10mph

One is visibly smaller with no size on it and the other larger kite has also no size on it

You are told that both took the same time (80 seconds) to pump

The smaller one needed 10 PSI (more effort needed) ...and the larger only 6PSI (less effort)

You want to have the most power possible to do the highest LW jumps,transitions and kiteloops

Of course you want to ride waves going off the wind and be sure to return upwind easily

You are told that you can choose either kite and you can keep it totally FREE...it would be a gift !

Now let's make this even more interesting

Those 2 kites are made by EPIC

Which one would you pick for your session ?

Honesty please

.......... ......................

[Dimitri M]

Why not take all of this as constructive criticism? Rather than trying to compete with all the other ~16m light-medium wind kites out there (e.g. Blade Fat Lady, Naish Fly, Dyno 17m, Ozone Edge 17m, etc), why not make a REAL light wind kite, e.g. a fast turning 21m kite???
With your considerable marketing skills, flair for graphics, and undoubted interpersonal charm, you could really blow the light wind market apart with a TRUE light wind kite. You could create something that justifies the hype, that can actually backup (most of) your claims, and that will sell itself. Obviously there is a LOT of interest in light wind kiting at the moment and it's only set to grow. If you produce a truly great LW kite, you could dominate the marketplace.

Mr.Pumpy, why do you think we are sold out of INFINITY kites!!! The only way to be able to make such a great kite such as the INFINITY kite is to be able to test all the other kites in the market and come up with something better, something faster and powerful that you can have a good time in light winds. So to answer your question we did take all this constructive criticism and came up with the INFINITY v1 two years ago, then v2 and now we are working on the INFINITY v3. So as you can see we are improving every time.
Now do me a favor please, email me at dimitri@epickites.com so I can send you an INFINITY v2 for you to demo so you can actually say something constructive. But again you might need to get some light wind lessons before you get on the kite in 7 to 10 knots because in this type of light breezes, it's a totally different world.
I am waiting for your email and don't be shy to email me.

P.S. By the way you are wrong about the size of the INFINITY.

[Kiteus Maximus]

No Kitewise...you missed the intended irony of why I posted the way I did. I posted in the same spirit as PMU's many disrespectful, ignorant, vulgar posts directed at Dimitri. Get it now? I'm just giving the dude a taste of his own medicine. If he can't take it then don't dish it out.

The dude is a troll. A person can make a valid argument in a respectful manner without inciting. If you go into a bar and start punching dudes you don't know...guess what? Most likely gonna' get punched back. PMU started with me about being a pimp so eff that dude. He's a baby who needs his diaper changed.

PMU - Jesus dude...take your personal bullshit private. You clutter this place with non-stop BS. I'm guessing you are some old ass guy...who was a kiter when kiting first came around. And because you were one of the early kiters you somehow feel you have a right to act like a "fuckking dik" as OldnBroken so aptly put it.

Take your old busted ass down the road and bury yourself in the elephant graveyard. Oh yeah...don't forget to call me a Dimitri supporter. That's your weak ass excuse when you get your ass ripped on here by someone who goes against you.

Maybe you are just an inefficient kiter who HAS to have a 35 meter kite to get going in light winds and therefore call BS when you see LW claims made by others.

Easy there boy! Obviously, You've got lots to say. You been on here 2 months and you have 85 posts!
Maybe you should take a pill or grow up. Or maybe just shut up! Didn't mother ever teach you any manners? Evidently not.

[Kamikuza]

You wanna know the point of this thread? There is up there - another ego-stroking bullshit-spewing copy'n'paste post from PMU

Stop feeding the troll, y'all.

[SupaEZ]

The light wind speed claim estimates are way too low..that is the point of this thread!!

Someone is in denial...... believes in an untruth...and sends an erroneous message to the youth

I would like to know if anyone on this thread has been riding LW on water+sail 50 years in a row

From age 6 to 56.....anyone anyone ??