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Really good post Oldnbroken, both some true facts, and your personal experiences where one might agree or not.

And you still keep a good and friendly tone

Peter

Oldnbroken wrote: The Rebel feels like an SLE kite, and that is a shape thing, the "non bridled" line connections do not make it feel more direct, I own the 8M 2011.

hmm that's not my experience, the fuel, rebel, ozone cat, slingshot park all have a direct feel . . . but the fuel has a very heavy bar, to me it does feel a bit more connected on a heavy bar, but the direct feeling to me is more than just a heavy bar, you want a really disconnected feel and a heavy bar, how about all those 2:1 pulley bars from 2008 and 2009. Also if the lines are longer you get the same feeling of a disconnected kite you have to account for line length I know north runs a bit longer lines than other kites. Experiences vary though, just saying how the kites feel to me.

I just recently crashed into a dangle dork who crashed his kite in front of me... I was sought of happy to know that the standard little plastic Ronstan pulley held up and the line attached to it broke. The new stainless steel ones will outlast the kite, lines and me
5 line and C kites ... a quick peep at any given kite beach will give you an insight to market trend of what average Joe rides... So each to their own, as we all know

Oldnbroken wrote:I compared two very similar bridled C kites recently.
One with a pulley and one with no pulley.
The one with the pulley had better low end and better top end.
The canopy must have been designed to give more bottom end, because they knew the pulley would allow more depower on the top.

That's like saying a Ferrari has loads of boot space for shopping

If low/top end are your main concerns then look at bow kites

I did not state what my main concerns are for a kite currently.
My main concerns for a kite have changed over the last nine years and will likely continue to.
This thread was started to comment on Mutiny's decision to remove pulleys from their kites.
I gave feedback on how one bridled C kite with a pulley feels (to me) compared to another bridled C kite without a pulley.
It is feedback, nothing more.
No arguments today thanks.

Got C-ish with pulleys where I´m not so satisfied with the level of connection

Thus short while ago I´ve asked the maker about what would happen if I turn it into a 5th line C, even if at the expense of some depower. The answer was not to do it due to structural reasons as the leading edge is too thin, but to try instead to remove the pulleys and connect the lines directly to the bridles.

Still need to try this and see how it goes, but given the answer guess that pulleys do impact the connection feeling

Wish people would stop going on about this "true c" rubbish.

Bow kites did not commit c kites to the history books, c kites did not suddenly become museum pieces. Some manufacturers stuck with the "true c" design and developed it into the true c kites that we have today - swept wing tips and 5th lines are all fundamental components of true c kites that improve the performance without the drawbacks associated with the bow/bridled design. 5th lines are not bridles, unlike bow and SLE kites where the power lines are part of the bridle their main function is to support the leading edge and keep the kite C shaped allowing improved performance characteristics that are desirable in c kites i.e. stability, thinner LE, better aerodynamics.

True c kites have lines that attach directly to the kite which gives you the direct feel at the bar and responsive turning that you lose with bridled pulleys or no pulley c kites like C4, RPM etc. Bridled Cs will never have the direct feel of a true c because the tow points points are not fixed and can move this movement gives a looser/sloppier feel at the bar. Swept wing tips and 5th lines do not affect this, they improve performance without any drawbacks.

If it has a bridle its a hybrid/SLE - not a c kite. And as for 5th lines being bridles, what about Rhino5/6, Vegas 6, Torches - these are all still true c kites

JGTR wrote:Wish people would stop going on about this "true c" rubbish.

agree. Let's not worry whether or not this kite is a C or that is a C let's just concentrate on how it flies. I think by your system the rebel might be a C kite, because it has no bridle, just a 5th line and a small split up near the kite.

C kites are about the shape of the kite not the way the lines are connected, You can fly waimanns direct connected but they are deltas, you could make a 5 line kite pivot around the wing tips if that was your design intentions, and a loaded 5th line does the same job as a bridle. Any way there are some who want to appear above others and brag about their kites and there are others who ride what does the job for them.

C kites are about the shape of the kite not the way the lines are connected

If you could show me a bridled C that maintained the direct feel and turning of a C kite then I would believe you but I've yet to fly a bridled kite that doesn't have that sloppy feel at the bar - granted some are a lot better than others but bridles still make the bar feel less positive which is not what C kites are about.

As you rightly say any kite can be made to fly in a certain way so how can it be to do with the shape of the kite, the shape is irrelevant a kite is defined by its flying characteristics and c kites are about positive and direct feel which you can't get with bridles.

Any way there are some who want to appear above others and brag about their kites and there are others who ride what does the job for them.

Yawn.....can't have a conversation about c kites without this old chestnut being posted by someone.