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Cloud 17 Full Review vs. Speed 3 21meter

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Re: Cloud 17 Full Review vs. Speed 3 21meter

Postby tautologies » Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:06 am

SupaEZ wrote:OK but the title of thread is that the puffy Cloud 17 goes head to head with a pillowy SP3 21
I believe the dude that rode for only 20 minutes and could not even match a pillowy SP3 15
I believe that the review would be more fair and even versus a pillowy SP3 12 Deluxe

Strutless versus LE-less-strutless

:bye:
huh? Op owns both kites, and I am assuming he had more than 20 mins on his speed?

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Re: Cloud 17 Full Review vs. Speed 3 21meter

Postby Jantrit » Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:49 am

First I love that any thread talking about clouds is almost guaranteed to get a bunch of folks worked up. That this kite can get so many folks animated, regardless of which side you are on, says something about the kite.

I have a cloud 17 and a 9, 12, and 14 rebel of various years. This is my 3rd year kiting so I'm still a nubbin in this crowd (shout out to davesails7). All that said, I can echo the great support from Greg. He is an awesome guy to talk to and I highly recommend contacting him...for well, anything kite related.

The cloud is a very different kite to fly compared to my rebels. When I dive my rebels I get a big burst of power and then it pretty much stays at the same pull when I get up on plane with only a little more pull at speed. The cloud seems to not have the massive kick to the face pull on the first dive but as you pick up speed the pull increases a lot. To the point where the initial dive feels almost anemic to what is going to come once you get up on plane. Maybe I'm just in a place with lots of gusts or maybe I'm just too inexperienced to tell the difference, but that has been my experience so far.

I don't think it is fair to just look at just cross sectional area or projected area of a kite as a measure of power generation. Kite's are three dimensional and they act like wings in the air. Different designs are going to exploit this to varying degrees.

On the relaunch of the cloud, I've dumped mine a handful of times because of operator error (it happens) and for the most part relaunch has been very predictable and really easy. As long as you keep the canopy up you are good. A couple of times I've dropped the kite in crazy light wind and then stood up and pulled back on the center lines with the canopy on the water facing me. This puts water on top of the canopy and makes it a real pain to get back up off the water. I generally end up with a large amount of water over one wing tip and in light wind I just can't get it to launch like this. The solution I've found is to pull one line and spin the kite on top of the water and then basically "reset" it like you just dropped it and let the wind fill the canopy properly. This has only happened to me in crazy light wind when I didn't have enough power to ride and was just messing with the kite so take that into account. In proper (think rideable) wind I have yet to see this happen.

It would be awesome if one kite could be "the best" at everything but our sport has grown to the point where I just don't think that is possible. I appreciate the folks that do these reviews because we get to see what they were interested in with the kite and if it lived up to their expectations.

For me I went with the cloud over a foil because I am a newer kiter and expect to drop the kite while I learn. I also expect to use it in light wind with the possibility of the wind completely shutting off. Both of these situations I feel are made less dramatic with the addition of a large inflatable leading edge if I can't relaunch the kite (lack of skills, no wind, whatever).

Bottom line for me is that I like the kite and it does everything that I want it to. I think it's great to have all these different options to choose from and I'm sure that one of these days I'll add a flysurfer to the mix because they are awesome kites and I'd love the challenge of learning to fly them.

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Re: Cloud 17 Full Review vs. Speed 3 21meter

Postby The Captain » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:17 am

God. I hope nobody starts a blathering cut-and-paste about the aerodynamically inferior strutless kite. I am not sure I could take that shit.

Interesting reviews. Different kites, so kinda like comapring apples and oranges. Both will get you juiced, but in different ways. From what I read, I'd like to have both.

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Re: Cloud 17 Full Review vs. Speed 3 21meter

Postby NYKiter » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:47 am

The Captain wrote:God. I hope nobody starts a blathering cut-and-paste about the aerodynamically inferior strutless kite. I am not sure I could take that shit.
.
:bravo:

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Re: Cloud 17 Full Review vs. Speed 3 21meter

Postby Tone » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:11 am

tautologies wrote:
SupaEZ wrote:OK but the title of thread is that the puffy Cloud 17 goes head to head with a pillowy SP3 21
I believe the dude that rode for only 20 minutes and could not even match a pillowy SP3 15
I believe that the review would be more fair and even versus a pillowy SP3 12 Deluxe

Strutless versus LE-less-strutless

:bye:
huh? Op owns both kites, and I am assuming he had more than 20 mins on his speed?
with all due respect, it doesn't mean he knows how to get the best out of it either..

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Re: Cloud 17 Full Review vs. Speed 3 21meter

Postby tautologies » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:20 am

Tone wrote: with all due respect, it doesn't mean he knows how to get the best out of it either..
true, but I would think there is a chance that if I did not get the most out of one of the kites I owned and had ridden a while..chances are I would be just as bad at all of them.

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Re: Cloud 17 Full Review vs. Speed 3 21meter

Postby joriws » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:37 am

tautologies wrote: I think it is fair enough to make ones own choices, but I am also a little weary about going with what someone who has ridden a kite for 20 minutes..but have a lot of experience on another kite.

It is all valuable information, but I think kites that are more similar is easier to give an evaluation after only a short run.
I was running Cloud for 20 minutes as a try-out from friendly individual. It was the same thing you could do on your local beach organized by kite shop, "do you like the kite and consider the purchase". It is the first impression kite marketing. I did not try safety and relaunch because it was not a demo kite by shop.

I just wanted to know how strutless feels and does it generate power. After 20 minutes I quit trying, it has not got enough power for me in this wind and I am not having fun testing it. Maybe +2m/s more wind and I'd have ridden it for 2 hours (if I was allowed). But kiting for me is not about suffering. Kiting for me is about riding and jumping hopefully with afterburner. For that you need power more than agility. And feedback and feel from the kite.

I wanted to share my experience Cloud vs Speed because I've experience with Speed3s since 2010 and I've owned them all (12-15-19-21). Now I have just the 15 which suits best on sweet spot-wise in local winds and it is agile compared to 21. I think it is optimum for my kiting preferences with local conditions. And I am waiting to see/test what larger Speed4s are bringing to the table, that is why I sold my 21 this spring.

The owner of Cloud was also suffering on his own twin tip. I did not check his board model and dimensions. Barely holding ground or slightly downwind but he was first summer kiter so on skill and touch level he probably has much to improve. But after testing my Flydoor XL under his feet he could immediately ride his kite and go upwind. So for lighter rider Cloud performed and had enough juice when twin tip was fast enough. But imagine what he could have done with my Speed probably even with his normal board.

PMU knows, ignore the lies. I interpret this thread that it is Cloud-based pimping that Cloud could perform like 21. I second SupaEz that you should compare power levels of Cloud probably with Speed3 12DLX. 12 is funfactor-wise (acceleration and agility) totally different thing from 21. I estimate that if I could downwind plane with Speed4 10m I probably could have had mathworks kiting with ground holding with Speed3 12. Similar to Cloud.

As I mentioned downwind planing with Speed4 10DLX which I tested immediately after giving Cloud back to its owner and getting my Flydoor back from his counter-test. All beach watchers were betting against me "you cannot plane with 10 meters" and lost. In my country there is a 50kg woman which rides Speed4 8m when others use 15-21m sizes (all kite models). So for her even 8m is considered as light wind kite.

Unfortunately my GoPro battery had died on my session with 15 so I was only able to get short 15-20s clips until camera turned itself off again. I'd have loved to share what happened when I tried to jump the Cloud, and also self-video-analyze what went wrong :). *pufff* and mighty 20cm of height.

A teaser about power levels of Speed 3 21 to which the Cloud 17 is compared on this topic: similar wind, air/water temperature and same board and rider with same beach spot but just 2.5 years earlier and me less experienced. It was my first water session with my 21. With Speed3 21 I could get aquaplaning on upstroke after reverse relaunch, that is POWER. And I've kited 21 comfortable at 13m/s (26 knots) that is wind range. No way with Cloud based on my yesterday experience.


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Re: Cloud 17 Full Review vs. Speed 3 21meter

Postby tautologies » Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:44 am

I interpret this thread that it is Cloud-based pimping that Cloud could perform like 21. I
I'm not saying that you didn't have the perception I'm say when someone has ridden one kite for a long time it takes more than 20 mind to get the feel for a new one...especially if they are very different. I say the same thing about short demos too.

I think it is silly to claim pimping just because you disagree tho. I read op very differently.

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Re: Cloud 17 Full Review vs. Speed 3 21meter

Postby SupaEZ » Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:35 pm

[quote="davesails7" If you really looking to get out in the lightest wind, a few MPH is EVERYTHING! If you are just looking to have some fun on 10 knot days, and need a fast kite for waves, the Cloud is a good option. I would take it over the Dyno or Speed in the surf :thumb:[/quote]



Cloud = "good option" but in true 10 knots steady wind not "greatest option"

Put 2 guys in a showdown both 75kg and both on a Nugget 2013 in waves + whitewater+ drift

They have equal LW expertise.....everything is identical except for the kites

One on a puffy Cloud 17 and the other guy a fast turning powerful looping transitioning XR3 19

This new "shorter bridle" 19 rides great on standard 24m lines ( no need for extensions 4 me)

One will have a "OK" good time and the other the "greatest" time ever

My 2-4 nuts no-nonsense :wink:
Last edited by SupaEZ on Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cloud 17 Full Review vs. Speed 3 21meter

Postby BWD » Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:35 pm

This thread is on a downward spiral with misconceptions.
If you aren't practiced at flying LEIs in light wind, you are not going to get the most out of them at the low end, especially the clouds.
The cloud is an apparent wind power kite.
It doesn't jerk you super hard when you dive it to waterstart.
This has caused people to call it gutless.
That's like calling a jet engine gutless because it doesn't make much power at low rpms.
The cloud will pull you out of the water from 6 knots, unless your board is way too small (or you are gigantic). Once up and moving, the kite makes power by developing apparent wind.
Sine it down hard and you will accelerate.
If you turn it back up to zenith too abruptly, you will lose apparent wind and power.
So send it down hard, sheet out an inch and let it climb back to 45-55 degrees. Repeat as needed.
Guys that weigh 70-80 kg get going on doors or standard surfboards in 6 or 7 knots.
Guys that weigh 110, need bigger boards and kites.
A 6 foot surfboard or a glide or door is not going to work as well for someone that weighs 110.
Those who ride flysurfers know they have their own quirks and requirements of the rider.
So do other kites.
20 minutes is not enough to learn these things, whether you are testing a cloud or a speed, imo.

On the other hand, 20 minutes is enough to compare a cloud 17 and a zephyr, and I did just that in 7 to 12 or 14 knots last summer. I think I wrote about it here earlier in summer.
Anyway, the short version:
Basically, the cloud is more fun when it is really light because it stays up when the zephyr falls out of the sky (<6 knots), and it relaunches faster if it does come down. Performance in 8-14 knots is pretty even upwind, but the cloud goes better until around 12 knots. IMO. Over 14-15 the zephyr is finally really powered, while the cloud is nearing its top end. In 18 knots a zephyr is still fun, but a cloud 17 would be overpowered unless you are a big guy.
There's no substitute for size, but for a lot of riders, 17 or 18m is plenty.
100kg+? The 19-21m kites are bigger...


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