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Alternate choices (cheaper then Speeds) for light wind

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elliott george
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Re: Alternate choices ( cheaper then Speeds ) for light wind

Postby elliott george » Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:40 am

mattthieu wrote:once again : 10.5 meter is no fucking light wind kite !!!! period

it's not because a kite is light and holds in the air, or because a kite has no depower and is hard to control and freightens people thatit becomes because of the power of magic a light wind kite.....

10.5 m is NEVER going to be a light wind kite for someone adult sized !!!
Agreed 10.5 is not a light wind kite.................BUT

To fly the flexifoil mrk.3 10.5 blade is the most EXTREME thing you can do with just a kite.

Wish I had one for those days I've got got some spare pain meds.

My mate used to have one and we would fly it at the end of every session. Got beaten up so much on that kite. Nothing pulls harder when your flying that thing in 20 knts. And nothing gets the pulse going when your hanging from handles 10m above the sand!!!

loco4viento
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Re: Alternate choices (cheaper then Speeds) for light wind

Postby loco4viento » Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:52 am

Wow. Impressive response (Matthieu)

I'm guessing you've never tried a two line 10.5 on a bar so I don't blame you for thinking that way. It really is hard to believe and I wouldn't believe it myself if some stranger on a forum told me so. But there is always something interesting to me about the whole "if I don't think it can be done, it can't be done" mentality. Pretty common and sometimes misleading.

A well tuned two line 10.5 with a flat board and a rider who knows how to fly it is a pretty amazing thing (and I don't even fly mine that way anymore).

Have fun

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Re: Alternate choices ( cheaper then Speeds ) for light wind

Postby jbdc » Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:35 am

elliott george wrote:
joriws wrote:What I've read reports of Pansh kites - don't bother.
Few reviews have said there ok

Their very tempting considering the 22m will only cost you $779 which I think is around 600 pounds in the uk. Very cheap compared to the 21 flysurfer

http://www.panshkite.com/index.php?gOo= ... oductname=

Any opinions on the bigger sizes?
I have a 15m (so, not the 19m or the 22m) paired with a ~23" Naish 5-line bar. You need to ask yourself the following question when considering an Aurora, "How much is my time worth?" In order to get the thing to perform at all, it's going to take some futzing--perhaps a lot. If you're easily frustrated, it could take years off your life. Even if you aren't easily frustrated, a big Aurora could take all the remaining years of your life at once. They're unrefined and a bit scary.

Out of the box, the 15m pulls hard once moving, turns slow and has very little depower. This works fine on the snow, but on the water in light wind (which is what I got it for) the gutless high-aspect shape and the slow turning make it very difficult to get going. Then, once you get on plane and the apparent wind kicks in: holy shit, does it pull. So, you let the bar out to reduce the power--and nothing happens. You just keep going faster, and it just keeps pulling harder. Inevitably, you explode and repeat the entire process again, losing what little upwind progress you may have made against the apparent wind tractor by trying to get up on plane.

You get back to the beach and start the walk of shame thinking, "This can't be right, there's no depower whatsoever. I've got to adjust the front/rear difference." But in the interval, the wind has picked up by 1 knot--and because the depower is non-existent, progress back up the beach is slow and difficult on your tip toes. A small gust comes, and in the interest of self-preservation you release to the 5th line (which you had to set perfectly, by the way). Eventually, you make it back to the launch and deal with whatever mess has become of the bridle. Finally, you make your intended front/rear adjustment and try it all over again. Now, you've choked the power out of the kite entirely; but the light's gone or the wind has changed and you'll have to deal with finishing the tuning another day.

After struggling with this a few more times, you begin to realize why it only cost you $300 on sale (plus another $200 for the bar and lines). But by scouring forums and French websites with weak English translations you find hope: A bridle modification which promises superior depower and turning speed! So, you source suitable line and make 50 bits of spectra of varying lengths to millimeter precision. Finally, you install them on the kite; confident you've followed the instructions to the letter. You're excited to finally have what you've sought after all along: A poor-man's Flysurfer. The next light wind day, you've got everything set, and you put it in the air: "Hrm, it's not inflating fully. Probably the light wind. I'm sure it will fill-out with a couple power strokes." Proceed to the water, fail to get moving, kite won't inflate. Walk back-up beach against increasing wind, try adjusting the front/rear balance again... and then again. With dying light, decide 'f*** it': land the thing and pump the 13m inflatable for a desperation sunset session because you haven't been out in 3 weeks.

Later, you learn from a friend who's also done the bridle mod that the instructed b-line extension is total bunk, it puts too much shape in the kite and prevents it from inflating. It isn't until winter you deal with it in fits and starts 'cause it's just such a damn hassle. It sits in the car with the next tuning step ready for testing, taunting you with its inability to be tamed.

It's like a throwback to kiteboarding in the early 2000s: You need a lot of initiative to partake in something which is often frustrating and occasionally life threatening. If you're looking for a DIY project which could end it all for you, an Aurora is just the thing!

I'm still hopeful that my next time out with it will meet the expectations I had for it at the outset, and I'll see it through because I'm stubborn like that. But really, if I had to do it all over again I'd buy a gently used Flysurfer if I really wanted a foil, or one of these new lightwind inflatables for even less hassle.

Please don't take this 'review' as a knock on Pansh. I have a pair of Fluxes and a Blaze II I'm very happy with. When it comes to the Aurora, I got exactly what I paid for (probably more): A big-ass, cheap-ass foil with very little in the way of the R&D required to make a kite suitable for kiteboarding. I under-estimated the amount of tinkering it'd take (though I knew I'd be doing the bridle mod when I bought it), and over-estimated the amount of time I was willing to spend doing that tinkering. Had I been more dedicated, this boondoggle would be sorted by now--it's been a little over a year since I got it. My buddy who also did the bridle mod on 3 separate Auroras is perfectly happy with his quiver (and is clearly more dedicated than me). So, YMMV.

Oh, I should mention that I also replaced the shitty brass pulleys which came on the kite with Ronstan kite blocks. So, there's another $40-50 in addition to the bar & lines, and the specialty line for the bridle mod. When you factor in the time, we're deep into the red of any cost/value proposition.

If you decide you're up to the challenge, I wish you luck. If anyone's interested, I have local copies of the bridle mod calculator and bridle map since niaboo.com is offline now.

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Re: Alternate choices ( cheaper then Speeds ) for light wind

Postby norcom » Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:41 am

jbdc wrote:... In order to get the thing to perform at all, it's going to take some futzing--perhaps a lot. If you're easily frustrated, it could take years off your life. Even if you aren't easily frustrated, a big Aurora could take all the remaining years of your life at once. ...
So what you're saying is, THERE'S A CHANCE! :rollgrin:

But in reality thanks for the review. I'm not sure how much I would be willing to mess with the kite to get it tuned perfectly considering I'm used to just flying them out of the box. Still, the prospect of trying a huge foil at a quarter of the price is very tempting.

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Re: Alternate choices (cheaper then Speeds) for light wind

Postby mattthieu » Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:47 am

loco4viento wrote:Wow. Impressive response (Matthieu)

I'm guessing you've never tried a two line 10.5 on a bar so I don't blame you for thinking that way. It really is hard to believe and I wouldn't believe it myself if some stranger on a forum told me so. But there is always something interesting to me about the whole "if I don't think it can be done, it can't be done" mentality. Pretty common and sometimes misleading.

A well tuned two line 10.5 with a flat board and a rider who knows how to fly it is a pretty amazing thing (and I don't even fly mine that way anymore).

Have fun
STILL it's not a light wind kite !!!! ok, you can do stuff with it, but, it's just 10m !!!!

consider one thing, IF this old 10m is really a light wind machine ( i'm talking 90 kg guy, 150 x 50 board, 7 knots steady, going upwind ) ( witch i did on BIG inflatable ) then why in hell do the industry produce bigger kites ( it costs them more skytex ) ????? whay do ALLLLL kite designer bother doing 14m ? 17 m? even 21 m ????????

so, it impressed you back in the days, that's fine....... and i would NOT NEVER have the balls to hang myself to 10m no depower !!!!!! but no LW kite.

mattthieu
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Re: Alternate choices (cheaper then Speeds) for light wind

Postby mattthieu » Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:57 am

TO JBDC :

something i dont get, is : i'm heaving a 12m aurora, and, depower is really good on this one, NO bridal mod done, right out of the box : just extensions to set plus 20cm on the front lines.

really NO power : ok, let's say 25 percent maybe even 20 percent when bar away..... and grut of power when bar pulled ( it alowes me to get pulled from the ground ( lying )and jump 4 feet hight to get going just as any inflate woudl do .....

BUT yes, the 15m, witch is not so mutch bigger has less depower !! dont get it !!!!

that's why i'm not so hot about getting the 19m.....

so, considering cloud !!!!!!

ps, if once you can get your hands on a 12m, try it, it's a blast.....

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Re: Alternate choices (cheaper then Speeds) for light wind

Postby robertovillate » Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:27 am

You might be surprised at how much power the 9m Flysurfer Peak has. I can keep pace with a 17m Cab Contra (with a skilled rider at the controls), riding in sub 10 kts on 6"-10" fast snow. The FS Speed 3 15m defo had more power, but quite slow turning by comparison to the Peak.

If FS decides to make a 12m Peak things could get very interesting on the light wind scene. Sweet spot for the 9m PEak is probably 12-19 kts (for me at 160#).

If you have the opportunity...try the Peak!

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Re: Alternate choices (cheaper then Speeds) for light wind

Postby loco4viento » Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:15 am

It's so much more useful when a guy that shoots off his mouth actually has experience with what he is commenting on, but sometimes we get strong opinions based on no experience, lots of conjecture and a big dose of ego. But it's still enjoyable and tells us plenty about the person making the comments.

I don't use my 10.5 as my ultra light wind kite and no longer use it as a two line beast, but I do know what it can do and it's a lot more than many would think, even self-appointed authorities with no experience. And while it's a totally different, unfamiliar and even uncomfortable kite for most of us, it has some amazing performance in its own punishing way. It really delivers in light wind, even though it delivers a lot of things that many of us don't like. That's why I don't use it 2-line anymore.

I've never flown an old C-Quad but an 8.5, 10,5 or 12.5 could outdo many of our modern day light wind kites double their size. And anyone who has flown the unstable, often center-collapsing Peter Lynn Waterfoil 5.7 would realize that there is a lot more than surface area or projected area involved in low end performance. It probably had better low end potential than current kites more than double its size (although it was also a user-unfriendly beast and disappeared forever).

I like the idea that so much is possible beyond what I can imagine, and that's something that this sport has shown me in many ways. The idea of alternative (and less expensive) light wind kites--especially small light kites for air travel--is really appealing to me and I hope to see developments along the lines of the Peak, the Cloud and other lightweight, compact kites to take anywhere in the world.

(Matthieu, you can try any of my stuff if I ever run into you)
mattthieu wrote:
STILL it's not a light wind kite !!!! ok, you can do stuff with it, but, it's just 10m !!!!

consider one thing, IF this old 10m is really a light wind machine ( i'm talking 90 kg guy, 150 x 50 board, 7 knots steady, going upwind ) ( witch i did on BIG inflatable ) then why in hell do the industry produce bigger kites ( it costs them more skytex ) ????? whay do ALLLLL kite designer bother doing 14m ? 17 m? even 21 m ????????

so, it impressed you back in the days, that's fine....... and i would NOT NEVER have the balls to hang myself to 10m no depower !!!!!! but no LW kite.

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Re: Alternate choices (cheaper then Speeds) for light wind

Postby loco4viento » Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:22 am

Very interested in that kite, Roberto! If I can't get a demo I might stalk you and beg you for a ride on the Peak, but I won't follow you around until I know you're in warm, liquid water. It would be a great experience to try it out and compare it to everything else I've used. I'm still hoping that a lightweight (maybe single skin) kite which delivers the light wind and upwind performance of a Speed 3 21 shows up someday. That would be quite the tool for air travel with a split board in a duffel bag.

Please keep the reports coming and thank you.
robertovillate wrote:You might be surprised at how much power the 9m Flysurfer Peak has. I can keep pace with a 17m Cab Contra (with a skilled rider at the controls), riding in sub 10 kts on 6"-10" fast snow. The FS Speed 3 15m defo had more power, but quite slow turning by comparison to the Peak.

If FS decides to make a 12m Peak things could get very interesting on the light wind scene. Sweet spot for the 9m PEak is probably 12-19 kts (for me at 160#).

If you have the opportunity...try the Peak!

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Re: Alternate choices (cheaper then Speeds) for light wind

Postby Guttorm » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:28 am

Speed 4 19m aspect ratio 5.7
Elf joker-4 19m aspect ratio 8.0 makes the Speed look wery fat
I did see it in El Medano in januar, it was performing extremely well with a foil board when all other kites were like glued to the ground.
http://www.kite-site.ru/joker4eng.html
I dont know the prices but it is made in Russia, so I guess its not to expensive.
:thumb:


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