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North Dice 2014 10m issue

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sarc
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Re: North Dice 2014 10m issue

Postby sarc » Wed Dec 24, 2014 3:57 pm

rjh wrote:Hi
I have been having issues with my 7 & 9 Dice with what I call lazy wing tips. They are not engaged when the kite its on setup, the tips just flap around aimlessly. When the bar is pulled in to power the kite the canopy looks nice a taught as it should do...all the time. But when the kite is de-powered the tips flap around and cause the kite to be rather slack in response to steering input, and flaps about through the gusts.

I have read through the notes here on other Dice issues and find some useful replies, the best and most accurate was to wash and stretch the bridle!! What? I had a bit of trouble understanding how it could have shrunk! Stretch, yes for sure.

I removed the pulley line, measured all other bridles whilst still attached to the kite.
I suspect North will have a tolerance on line lengths and within reason expect this to be 5.0mm

The main bridle line which the pulley rides on is at fault. Luckily North have put tags with the measurements on the whole bridle system. All the smaller bridle lines were as measured and at factory settings, but the larger bridle was near on 40mm shorter than the stated dimension attached to the bridle.
I managed to stretch out about 15mm whilst it was dry and then decided to soak both bridles in plain hot water and achieved another 15mm. The end result is the bridle is still 10mm of stock measured length.

The effect the bridle has on the wing tips is very important. The pulley will find its natural position on the pulley line, this is a set distance as per design requirements. Now if the line has shrunk this will effect the tips. The distance from the pulley to the wing tip is a set distance and cannot be changed by expecting the pulley to re-adjust its position on the pulley line, this distance has now been made effectively shorter , pulling the wing tip inwards.

I suspect the pulley line will shrink again in hot dry condition, which is uncommon here in north wales, but none the less i reckon it will. So, the fix is to make a new attachment pig tail at the leading edge with a moveable knot, measure up and set it to the distance required to gain the factory set length as per kite size bridle.

I suspect north have not used the best quality of Dyneema.
It was me who recommended to wash the lines and stretch by hand. it worked for my Rebels. Seems like it helped somewhat for you too, if true then great!

Armin put a great post on Kiteforum a couple of years back explaining that Dyneema does not stretch, it shrinks when salt, sand and dirt get trapped between the fibers and make the line fatter = shorter. That is certainly true for my Rebels (and bar lines too). So mild soap and a good wash (in a garment bag on the washing machine, line needs to shake well to lose the dirt) always gives back at least 20mm on my Rebel lines/pigtails.

p.s. I always check ALL my Rebel lines (I had a few over the years) and they were NEVER exactly the same as printed. Always at least 10mm difference. I make up the difference with Q-Power line, I should actually replace all lines with Q-Power but I'm lazy.

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Re: North Dice 2014 10m issue

Postby Westozzy » Thu Dec 25, 2014 12:31 am

Yep puetz not long ago and I measured the distance from the end of the lines to the Y split on north bars ranging from 2010 to 2015 with varying degrees of use and it was clear as day the front lines themselves had shrunk the older the bar.

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Re: North Dice 2014 10m issue

Postby kiteingcolin1 » Thu Dec 25, 2014 1:43 am

I have a brand new unflown 2015 dice, 10mtr.
I stumbled across this topic and feel it would be helpful if I can give my unbiased view of this kite as soon as I get to use it, which should be this Friday and Saturday as its still very windy here in the UK.
I have been using bandits for 5 years after coming off north Vegas kites after using them for 2-3 years,I am not light and like to fly loaded up for high boosting,I only came off vegas kites due to the 5th line set up being a liability in my sailing location of big waves and the kite being less than ideal in waves,and the resulting line slack and a few scary kite line wraps after the kite fell into the large rolling faces,
so this Dice will be tested to the full,drifting,looping,loaded high boosting in a gusty location.
fingers crossed it will be great, if not then I will let you know, and of course if its fit for my style then I will tell you, and order a few more. this one is a brand new demo kite with new bar and lines, the shorter bar,48cm I think, and 22mtr lines, the new lines look and feel quality, the bar looks the same as all my previous bars from north, I have only used north bars for the last 7 years since they cured the snappy lines thing from way back.

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Re: North Dice 2014 10m issue

Postby Westozzy » Thu Dec 25, 2014 3:27 am

Well we have had the new dice in our midst since early September now so some notes to compare for you. Compared to 2014

Less lag (much), tighter loops.
Flies more forward in the window.
About half to three quarters more powerful per siZe
Much more stable under load and at top end. Less wing wobble (the funny little Y leading edge bridle thingy must be working).
Boosts higher and longer by a fair margin.

Summary: more of a freeride/freestyle kite but has sacrificed it's really excellent wave riding ability and now just good.

Bar same as 2014 just a little more polish with all bugs ironed out from the evolution of the 2013 version.

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Re: North Dice 2014 10m issue

Postby kiteingcolin1 » Sun Dec 28, 2014 6:47 pm

kiteingcolin1 wrote:I have a brand new unflown 2015 dice, 10mtr.
I stumbled across this topic and feel it would be helpful if I can give my unbiased view of this kite as soon as I get to use it, which should be this Friday and Saturday as its still very windy here in the UK.
I have been using bandits for 5 years after coming off north Vegas kites after using them for 2-3 years,I am not light and like to fly loaded up for high boosting,I only came off vegas kites due to the 5th line set up being a liability in my sailing location of big waves and the kite being less than ideal in waves,and the resulting line slack and a few scary kite line wraps after the kite fell into the large rolling faces,
so this Dice will be tested to the full,drifting,looping,loaded high boosting in a gusty location.
fingers crossed it will be great, if not then I will let you know, and of course if its fit for my style then I will tell you, and order a few more. this one is a brand new demo kite with new bar and lines, the shorter bar,48cm I think, and 22mtr lines, the new lines look and feel quality, the bar looks the same as all my previous bars from north, I have only used north bars for the last 7 years since they cured the snappy lines thing from way back.
well I had a good session on the 10mtr yesterday,the sea was rough, waves from all directions, some big, winds gusty around 20mph, at my weight that would be 12 mtr weather, and my sailing buddies of around the same weight went out with 12mtr kites, I was powered up enough to test jumping,wave riding and compare low wing power compared to the two 12s, and owning a full quiver of series 7 and series 6 bandits was able to compare the feel.
I have to say the Bandits have met their match, better low end than the bandits, silky smooth and linear power delivery, jumping felt equal to the bandit, the kite was slightly faster and when it came to the waves it was delightful, I even forgot about the kite and concentrated on my path through the waves as they were difficult to predict, the kite was like a faithful partner and there when needed to power away, or drifting in front without drama, looping with either power or little power if snapped around, or more slowly for power to quickly to run away from danger.
its early day yet but it was good enough for me to phone up and tell my dealer to charge my debit card, and send me a 12mtr demo as soon as they come in.
so the 2015 Dice is a great kite,more stable than my Bandit in the 10mtr size at least, fingers crossed the 12 will be just as good,
the great thing is it flys on a 4 line bar, and the new North quad bar comes as a one line flag out rig, now that is even better as all the previous years of quad trust bar were not.

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Re: North Dice 2014 10m issue

Postby Do-it » Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:12 pm

sarc wrote:p.s. I always check ALL my Rebel lines (I had a few over the years) and they were NEVER exactly the same as printed. Always at least 10mm difference. I make up the difference with Q-Power line, I should actually replace all lines with Q-Power but I'm lazy.
Hehe.... I haven't noticed much shrinkage in my lines over the past year, but,I'm with you on the lazy part..... Three of my five lines have been spliced. I even have a whole spool of Q-line in the garage. However, I did change my depower rope last week. What a pain in the ass.

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Re: North Dice 2014 10m issue

Postby Massimo » Mon Dec 29, 2014 1:51 am

Make sure that the bridle were the pulley slides is well lubricated.

That makes the difference between a rock solid kite and a stupid dice.

Also for jumping is making a huge difference.

Have fun

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Re: North Dice 2014 10m issue

Postby Jose_Ayla » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:02 pm

Dear all,

I know this is a very old thread but I would like to add my comments and experience with my Dice 2014 kites.

I am an owner of a pair of North Dice 2014, 9m and 11m. I bougth them some months ago since they are in perfect conditions.

I had maybe 10-12 sessions with them, with good wind conditions. I found the kites are not very responsible, unstable and difficult jump. I realised they deforms their wingtips very easily. This means a big loss of power since the wind is pushing the outer side of the canopy in the wingtip area instead of the inner side. In the same day, with same wind conditions, I tried to jump with the 9m Dice and it was almost impossible. Then, I tried to jump with a 7m North Evo 2012 and the difference was huge (with the same wind conditions, I remark).

- I weigh 75kg.
- I have pumped the kite up to 6psi, 7psi, and even 8psi. It is true that with higher pressure, the shape of the kite is better, but not enough.
- There is no air leak in the bladders, the canopy sounds crispy.
- I have tried with my Duotone 2020 -4 lines bar (quad bar), and also with North 2014 trust bar.
- Both Dice 2014, 9m and 11m have the same issue.

I checked the length of the bridles and so on, comparing the measurement with the labels. And yes, the length I measured were some cm less than the labels, so I washed and stretched the lines of the bridle. Then, I tested the kites and they improved a little bit, but not enough.

I did my research on the internet, searching for pictures of the kite in order to compare the "normal" shape of the kite with the "abnormal" shape of my kites.

Picture of a "normal Dice", that I found on the internet:
North Dice 2014 - Normal shape.jpeg
North Dice 2014 - Normal shape.jpeg (17.05 KiB) Viewed 274 times
My Dice 2014 - 9m:
North Dice 2014 - Abnormal shape.jpeg
So, comparing the pictures, I see the leading edge close to the wingtip is deformed. It seems there is too much tension from the bridle lines attached to this area of the leading edge:
North Dice 2014 - Abnormal shape - short lines.jpeg
This corresponds to the lines in green colour in the schematic:
bridle schematic.PNG
bridle schematic.PNG (43.37 KiB) Viewed 274 times
So I decided to add some pigtails to these lines. As I expected that a small change in the length in the bridle would mean a big change in the kite behaviour, I placed a "short" 5cms extension. I noticed a small improvement, so I removed the 5cm extension and tried with 15cms. The behaviour of the kite was much better, more stable, I can jump much easier... but the kite is still deformed (less). Then I put a 30cm extension and the behaviour and shape improved even more.... Now I am preparing a 60cms extension so I can make some knots in order to find the optimal length, testing several lengths step by step...

From my point of view, a 30cm extension is too much for this line of the bridle and I guess there is something else that is affecting to the shape of the kite (I am going to test the extensions up to 60cms anyway...).

Maybe I should sell the kites, but, even if this is mess, I found this topic quite interesting and I want to learn and understand what is behind this problem (besides they are the kites that I have now and I can not sell kites that are not working properly...)

Also, I couldn't find any picture of a deformed Dice on the internet, so I decided to take a picture of my kite and share with you.

I would appreciate your comments on this topic, maybe in the last years anyone of you found a solution to this problem.

Thank you!
Jose

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Re: North Dice 2014 10m issue

Postby kevbeck » Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:41 pm

Hi Jose,

Have you found the correct tuning in the end?

I have exactly the same issue on my 2014 Dice 12m. It has the same (wrong) shape as yours and I have measured the main bridle length at 294cm instead of 304,5cm (factory length written on its little label). I was about to make a new 304,5cm line but I understand from your post that it might not be long enough. It would be wonderful if you could share your latest insights with me.

Thank you in advance!

Kevin

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Re: North Dice 2014 10m issue

Postby NorwayIsCold » Sat Jul 25, 2020 10:39 pm

Have same issue in my dice as well. Kite is practically unusable.
My kite looks exactly same as yours on pictures


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