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Comparison BRM Cloud C1 vs C2

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Re: Comparison BRM Cloud C1 vs C2

Postby Aummm » Sat Jan 10, 2015 3:59 pm

dwaynej wrote:Maybe you should try flying one so you can provide objective feedback? Since you mentioned Pete Carbinha, my Switchblade's are slow moving dinosaurs compared to the Clouds... But you knew that already based on your design skills right? :lol:
I've flown both also and you right… :lol:
But he value of turning "C" is diminishing beyond the point of no return of usable power and compliance factor,
so you're just spinning your wheels. :blabla:
Don't believe me :!: But dig up all the expert's opinions on this issue yourself, I mentioned before as a shocking evidence
since you're desperate and only a tool to argue :desperado: :out: 4 :surf:

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Re: Comparison BRM Cloud C1 vs C2

Postby dwaynej » Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:41 pm

Aummm wrote:...value of turning "C" is diminishing beyond the point of no return of usable power...
And you are not factoring the difference in weight between a kite with struts vs no struts. The heavier kite is encumbered with drag associated with its weight, while the lighter kite is moving fast and generating usable lift with apparent wind. On the smaller kites and decent wind, it does not really matter.

It's not take struts away and see what happens - The Cloud and the Chronix mitigate changes in their sail and strut design through their bridle systems. Taking it to the extreme, foil kites have very complex bridle systems... and no struts.

Its not that Greg (or anyone else for that matter) has or could attach a center strut to see how performance of the kite improves... But now adding weight starts to affect other performance aspects of the kite.

In all this discussion, the biggest irony is that everyone has focused on "strutless", but you don't have to look too hard at the Cloud design to realize that its is actually a two strut kite with the leading to trailing edge providing structure to support the wing profile while also providing trailing edge tension.

If you want to bash Clouds then fine, but its not strutless vs struts, its outboard struts and leading edge bridle enhancements vs inboard struts and minimalist leading edge bridle... But you knew that right?
Aummm wrote:....compliance factor...
Care to elaborate?
Aummm wrote:...But dig up all the expert's opinions on this issue yourself...
Thanks for clarifying that... Just an opinion of others (now dated) and no practical experience. Love that you throw some names around as if you speak for them. I am thankful we have designers like Greg who are prepared to challenge the norm.
Aummm wrote:I mentioned before as a shocking evidence
Shocking evidence? Its just a kite and its pretty easy to know whether it works or not... You fly it.
Aummm wrote:since you're desperate...
Desperate for what? Big air? Extended season flying in light winds?? Lightweight kites that move like a rocket?? What am I desperate for?

I fly foil kites as well - Does that make me more or less "desperate"??
Aummm wrote:...and only a tool to argue...
Not really anything to argue about. :lol:
Aummm wrote: :blabla: :naughty: :!: :desperado: :out: :surf: :thumb: :congrats: :dance2:
Seriously... How old are you?
Last edited by dwaynej on Sat Jan 10, 2015 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Comparison BRM Cloud C1 vs C2

Postby eabmoto » Sat Jan 10, 2015 7:56 pm

Every kite brand and design has people arguing about how great they are. The bottom line is, if you like flying a kite then it works for you. I think most products are chosen by looks and advertising anyway. It's a pretty dumb idea to argue about ones personal choices about gear. The Cloud works well enough to make a lot of people happy, and there are a lot of other kites out there for those that don't like them.

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Re: Comparison BRM Cloud C1 vs C2

Postby BWD » Sat Jan 10, 2015 8:20 pm

messickpt.PNG (89.05 KiB) Viewed 2015 times
This is the wind graph from my recent session on the 7m C2.
Instead of talking about things I have not experienced, I thought I would show some evidence of what I was talking about.
The cloud performed well freeriding with surfboard and on twintip, over the range of 20-35mph.
Yes, it was overpowered in the 35+ gusts on the surfboard, but in those gusts it was still comfortable to cruise and easily controllable for jumping with a twintip
This was just a real-world freeride session, no sponsored riders, designers, or shop workers.
There were about 12 riders that day, on LEI kites from 6 or 7m to 12m from north, best, cabrinha, slingshot, and flysurfer.
Riders' experience ranged from 1 year to 12 or more years.
Those with big kites had less fun and more risk though no one got hurt.
The small cloud worked great for this session.
I could easily pace and point with other riders on conventional LEIs, and definitely whip the kite around with more control and less danger than the larger kites out there.
Could someone on a 9 or 10m edge or or something like that have outpointed me or gotten more hangtime?
Of course!
But who cares?!
It was fun, not a contest, and I had a great time on the cloud, just as I probably would have on many other well designed 7 to 9m kites.

Now, on the theory of limitation of strutless design, the idea that it paints the designer into a corner has something to it, but not necessarily more so than any other design choice.
Having a kite that weighs an extra 500g or more also paints the designer into a corner.
Likewise, the aero drag of a bunch of struts can be a significant design constraint.
More weight and drag, from a heavier kite, require more lift (deeper profile).
Doing the job of propelling the rider does not require the deeper profile, or the fatter LE, or the struts. These features are there to service other design constraints.
More weight, more lift, more drag....
hmmm, "more" is the theme, sounds like we are needing more kite.
And in fact, this is the case! So in practice we see the strutless kiter is powered with a smaller kite than most conventional LEIs.
Is smaller better?
It depends.
For waves, travel, freeride, pumping the kite, avoiding lofting accidents, beginners, etc, I would argue yes, smaller can be better, whether it is achieved by lift profile, bridles, foil kites, or light, strutless kites.
It's a common sentiment that it can be much more fun to fly a smaller kite!
But for recreational ultra light wind, racing, big air, etc., one would usually choose to go the other way, and want the biggest kite that can be safely controlled. Choose the kite based on your goals and conditions!

It has taken foil kites decades to evolve to where they are now, and LEI's 20 years or so.
Strutless kites are newer to the kitesurfing scene, but show plenty of potential.
All design choices have constraints.
In fact "design choice" and "design constraint" are in many cases, practically synonyms and may become interchangeable through iterations of design.
So how to have the most fun?
Perhaps some prefer to always be "painted into" the same corner of design, performance envelope etc.
Some will prefer to try different corners, and different perspectives.

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Re: Comparison BRM Cloud C1 vs C2

Postby topmick » Sun Jan 11, 2015 11:59 am

Sorry for the thread hijack, i was hopeing someone could compare the C2 to an Airush Wave for me.
Most interested in turning speed & bar pressure, the Waves are pretty quick with light bar pressure, I,m after something similar but in a lighter build.

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Re: Comparison BRM Cloud C1 vs C2

Postby ronnie » Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:33 pm

This is just a collection of videos of Clouds and how they fly.

17m C1 on 32.5m lines.

17m C2 sining and relaunch

Mixture of 8m C1 and 6m C1

C2 relaunch

C2 responsiveness

and this short clip because of how fast this C2 responds at the bottom of the dive in what looks like light wind.

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Re: Comparison BRM Cloud C1 vs C2

Postby ronnie » Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:39 am

17m C1

Cloud C???

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