Some Kiteloop question

[marlboroughman]

You should learn heliloops first and start going higher gradually and land them on consistent basis. Gain understanding of the mechanics of it and the equipment. Once at it you realize how much safer heliloops are, the fact that you can stay up longer without rapid loss of altitude with time to jam some tricks you might forget the megaloops altogether. The idea of going from no loops to megaloops goes against every theory in learning flying or acrobatics where things are thought in steps or baby steps. I've been looping kites for five years now and if I wanted to get into megalooping which I don't I would get a Ckite or a hybrid with proven looping characteristics, new simple custom design bar and lines and a new harness. Next step would be upping life insurance of course.

[dyyylan]

theres so much confusing talk in this thread

just learn it when you're not very powered on your kite, they are very easy and safe if you don't have a lot of power.

just send the kite like a jump. on your way up pull really hard with back hand until the kite loops. sheet out and land.

if you go out properly powered and try to learn it "with proper technique" IE with a big jump, looping at the correct time, etc. good luck.

[jeffreygandee]

Yeah, I'm gonna second dylan's advice above. People are making this sound way more complicated/difficult than it has to be.

There's a whole lot a could write about doing really big loops, but when learning, it is best to keep it small. Just go out in conditions where getting high off the water isn't possible, and you'll minimize your chances of getting hurt. If it's really windy, learn something else.

Once you find yourself in conditions that feel right, I'm in the "crank the bar on the way up" camp. Heli-loops can be horrible if they are mis-timed, because you can get dropped like a rock. Looping on the way up in light conditions minimizes the risk of hitting the water hard, while preparing you for a proper powered up kiteloop in the future.

Start off riding slow. You can almost come to a stop on the water by edging upwind hard into your take-off. This keeps your height down and your lines tight for a quicker loop. Once you've got that down, work your way up to more power, and more speed at take-off, and you'll be doing bigger badder loops in no time.

[Starsky]

How's this for confusing the issue?

Back loop kiteloop transitions are the easiest kite loops. Build from there.

[Do-it]

How's this for confusing the issue?

Back loop kiteloop transitions are the easiest kite loops. Build from there.

Wish I would have been told that a while ago, but your right. Also not to be confused with backroll kiteloops.

Op-just grab a bigger board and smaller kite than normal in lower wind conditions. Get an impact vest, And then learn from the pain induced f*** ups as quickly as possible. Gotta pay to play


Oh yeah, if you can't control simple down loop transitions...... Start there.

[joandani]

Ok, I will only try to give some tips for the people who wants to learn how to loop a kite.
I am not a pro, but I have been looping kites for 4 years now, and my favourite sessions are 40 knots, 7m c-kite, 20m lines and throwing megaloops.

Until I really learned how to do them properly, I had 3 injuries during these years, because it is not a trick you can fail in hard conditions, and because it is a trick that nobody really explain in a detailed howto, or in most cases, explain in wrong ways (some people think that a kiteloop or megaloop trick is only steering the bar)

Once you master it, the risk decrease a lot.

So, to minimize the pain of learning stages, I will try to give my personal tips (I would appreciate them if somebody had told them to me in the beggining):

GEAR:

Type of kite: C-KITE, or hybrid kite that loops good (not all the kite loops good, even not the same kite in different years loops the same).
Kite size and lines: 7m better to start with loops in my opinion, but with less than 27 knots to avoid injuries.
Proper wind to learn: 22-27 knots.
Proper wind to throw big loops: 27-32 knots
Proper wind to megaloop: more than 32 knots
Meters of lines: 23-24m (take 20m when you will master the loops, not before)
Proper way to learn before make a kiteloop: master your kite behavior, make surface downloop transitions to know the loop behavior of your kite, etc...

WHEN START THE LOOP:

- A tip that I always hear and makes me nervous...
NEVER START a kiteloop in the highest part of the jump (kite needs tension in lines to return to the zenit, so if you look all good kiteloops or megaloops, in the highest part of jump, the kiteloop is already in its lowest part (half loop done))
If you start the loop in your highest position, the tension of the lines that made you go up is not there anymore (you are not going up anymore, you are at the apex!), so when you will throw the loop, the kite wont have tension in lines, and will not recover the zenit at time and will not catch you before you crash your bones to the water!

You have to start the loop in any moment BEFORE the apex, to take profit of the line tension. If you are doing it right, you will see that in your highest point, the loop will be at his lowest (half loop).


WHERE PUT THE KITE TO START THE LOOP:

If you master the loops, you can start the loop in any position between 30º (angle between water and lines of kite) and the zenit.
But, if you are starting to learn them, always start the loop at 12 (zenit) (and, in any case, doesnt stop the loop until it do the entire loop, in any case!).
But here I have to explain a little better: when I says 12 or zenit, I mean 12 just above yourself! doesnt start your jump putting the kite from 45º! start the jump with the kite at 11! with a correct pop and good wind, from 11 to 12 is good enough to throw a proper loop.

Important tip: think about that... in the position where the kite is when you start the loop , is the position where the kite will finish the loop... so if you are not used to make the pendulum at high speed and throw a second loop to make a good landing, dont throw a low kiteloop! try to make the softer pendulum, and this is throwing the kiteloop in the highest position (almost as an heli loop).
So for first kiteloop attempts, throw it at 12, jumping from 11, and throwing the loop with the turning radius the most narrow or closed you can (I will explain that later).

HOW TO THROW THE LOOP:

In the moment you decide to throw the loop, you have to do it with full comitment! Think that if you dont finish the complete loop, the crash is hard, this is not deciding in the last moment to stop a sbend and crashing...

So, in the moment you decide doing the loop, take the bar down all the way (only pushing down the bar, not steering any side of the bar, to assure the bar is all the way down) (in fact you already have to have the bar down beacuse you had jump from 11 to 12) and just after steering as much as you can the side of the bar.
Tip: if you make the loop jumping to the left side (with the right foot in the rear position), a useful tip is to put the front hand (left) in the middle of the bar, and the rear hand (right) in the extreme right of the bar. This will make the turning radius the most closed way (be careful when you jump because if you are not used to, you will steer the bar to the right just leaving the water).

If you dont push the bar all the way down before steering the right way to make the loop, you may not finish your loop and crash!

Later, when you master kiteloops, for megaloops, you can control the force of the steering to make the circle wider and loop the kite at the same height than you... but this is not a good tip for begginers, sorry.

IMPORTANT TIP: just when the kite finish the loop and looks start pointing to zenit, release the bar all the way up and you will see the kite start moving again to the zenit (or the direction you had stoped the loop), and catch the bar all the way down again to soft the reception before landing.


HOW TO LAND A LOOP:

Main tip: learn how to land high jumps (or normal ones) with a downloop. Learn how to control the momentum or the pendulum, making a downloop to do the landing and continue riding away.

Ok, now you should know how and when to throw the loop, but when the loop finish, what we have to do?
In first kiteloops with not much height, this is not so important, you can finally steer the kite left or right just before landing, because you dont have to throw a loop in a height that you could not land it without the help of the kite (22-25 knots and a 7m), and your downwind speed wont be too much, your kite will be out of the window droping while you are going downwind in the landing, but you can do a downloop with the kite out of the wind window to have it in again, or edge your board and get tension in lines to control the kite before it falls down completely.

If you start to throw loops with a normal height, you will have to resend the kite after the loop to the zenit to take profit of its vertical force to soft your landing.

But now it appears the difficult tip to explain: what should we do with the kite once it is at zenit again or once we make the landing (normally with a high speed downwind...)

So, making the same exemple than before, if you are jumping to the left size, and make the kiteloop to the right, you will normally finish your jump like a transition (for that reason is a good thing to master the downloop landings (except if you had not make a strong pop and the horizontal left speed you had win against the loop horizontal right force, so in this case, you will have resend the kite to zenit and throw just before landing a second loop in the same sense than the first one (to conserve tension in lines, because you are landing to the left, not to the right like a transition).
So, lets put a normal case of a big loop now. You go left, throw kiteloop to the right, and you have make a good pop before jumping (this would stop a little bit your left horizontal speed and increase tension in lines to make a good take off, this will makes you go higher too) and you land to the right, like a big transition jump (a kiteloop or megaloop is finally the same than a transition jump, but with a momentum and increased downwind speed due to the loop).

Lets continue, you jump, you can send the loop from 45º if you are in high winds (35 knots or more) loop the kite, release the bar, and now this is the key tip!

KEY TIP: if you are making a big loop, the kite will catch the zenit before you catch the water, so you have to resend a second loop. For that reason we will resend the kite after the half loop, but not to the zenit. We will resend it a little bit to the right (in this case of transition jump = jumping left and landing righ size ) and WAIT (this is not an easy part when you are learning megaloops) until the kite will be above you or even rear you (this will decrease you downwind speed) and make an heli loop or downloop just above you (this will help making the vertical kite force to make a soft landing.

Extra info: for megaloops, a key tip is the speed you have before jumping, go as fast as you can, while you can control and do a strong pop and strong tension in kitelines! Enjoy Kitelooping!!!

Lol... I just wanted to make some simple tips, and I finally wrote a book. XD
Sorry, but it is a little difficult to explain this things.

I hope you will find this text useful

I let you a video to finish the explanation:

[nick14]

Im with Starsky, i started with backloop kiteloops first. I also started doing them with a 15m kite in lighter winds where things were slower....the kite was a fastish turning 15m though.

[dracop]

Hello All,

I have few question about doing kiteloop for my next session.

When you are about to do a kiteloop do you wait to be at your highest ?

Do you necessarily need to have your kite at 12 to send the kiteloop ?

Do you pull the bar when your do a kiteloop or do you recommend to keep it at mid course ?

Thx for your answer and others tips.

Cheers

No do not take that approach, start looping the kite on your way up

No, you can loop the kite from positions other than 12, but its harder and will pull you harder laterally because the kite is lower down. Start off with downloops and experiment with those to get the hang of this first, its a gentle way to learn how your kite will react and the forces unleashed when not at 12

At first yes, how powered up you are in terms of sheeting in and out combines with the angle which you pull your bar to determine the width of the kiteloop and the speed of the kiteloop. Paradoxically, slower/widest kiteloops are the hardest and most dangerous to use whereas a fast, tight kiteloop around the zenith (12 o clock - this is a heliloop) is the easiest and least dangerous.

Read my essay on the mechanics of kiteloops, most of it is actually pretty good.
viewtopic.php?t=2387156

[dracop]

WHEN START THE LOOP:

- A tip that I always hear and makes me nervous...
NEVER START a kiteloop in the highest part of the jump (kite needs tension in lines to return to the zenit, so if you look all good kiteloops or megaloops, in the highest part of jump, the kiteloop is already in its lowest part (half loop done))
If you start the loop in your highest position, the tension of the lines that made you go up is not there anymore (you are not going up anymore, you are at the apex!), so when you will throw the loop, the kite wont have tension in lines, and will not recover the zenit at time and will not catch you before you crash your bones to the water!

You have to start the loop in any moment BEFORE the apex, to take profit of the line tension. If you are doing it right, you will see that in your highest point, the loop will be at his lowest (half loop).

THis is good advice. I originally tried learning kiteloops by starting the loop at the apex of the jump, that was a big mistake. That only works when you boost really high and have enough vertical to still be airborne after the kite does the loop. I am aware alot of people repeat this, but Ive found starting before the apex works best. It also allows you to do it with smaller jumps/lighter winds.

Do it in light winds and position yourself for a downwind pull - even if the loop does not complete while airborne its fine, you will see the loop and its effects and can begin adjusting.

[marlboroughman]

That's why kite choice makes a difference. Direct steering axially turning kite will respond with slack in the lines. As far as starting with back spin back loop I admit I started like that too but looking back a transition with front loop makes more sense since you are facing the action and you will be aware of a kite position to understand what is happening and it can be done even fully powered and it will not be so painful even when things go wrong.