Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

What is the value of trainer kites? I don't get it.

Forum for kitesurfers
User avatar
lovethepirk
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 569
Joined: Sun May 10, 2015 7:04 am
Kiting since: 2015
Style: Almost air tacking on hydrofoil...
Gear: Delta Race Hydrofoil, 15m SS Turbine, 12m Switchblade, 9m Switchblade
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Naples, FL
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: What is the value of traing kites? I don't get it.

Postby lovethepirk » Thu Aug 13, 2015 6:51 pm

I bought a trainer and I feel it helped me a ton. I have learned how to hold it steady or move it very minimally at the edge of the window. I also feel much more confident when I eventually get some lessons.

I have flow it about 20 times now in south florida in 5mph winds and a couple times in 25 mph winds. I will say the 5mph winds tought me the skills to really keep it in the air and the 25 mph winds taught me massive respect for the power. I've made a few mistakes that I am glad I made with the trainer and not a large kite.

After about 10 times I rigged up a belt and it is much more enjoyable to fly with the belt attachment b/c you can fly it with one hand and relax a little more. Body dragging in higher winds is much easier using this belt.

Image

Cray
Medium Poster
Posts: 96
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:37 pm
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Re: What is the value of traing kites? I don't get it.

Postby Cray » Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:44 pm

I've learned using a trainer; and it was a significant waste of time. Actually it even put me on the wrong track.

Trainers are not good: they cost way more then they are worth. They actually teach wrong body position / bar handling. They have limited value of teaching wind-window to the elderly, becouse elderly need much more time with the kite to develop muscle memory and can't handle concurrently so many different inputs. ...and for the kids; so they can do something while the parents kite with real gear. The trainer also teaches you that you NEED to hold on to the bar and DON'T LET GO - totally wrong.

Trainers are being used becouse schools are to cheap to buy proper depower foil and are located at a too windy spots for introduction hour.

Kite handling is not just working the bar, but also respecting the kite/wind, using your whole body to perform kite control and use of depower. If you want to "work" the kite the "proper" way, you need a harnes and a full depower kite. I introduce people to kiting using my full depower 6m2 winter foil kite at around 4-8 kts. People learn amasingly fast "the right thing"(tm). Using full body and depower for kite control, not just jerking the bar left-right.
Of course I hold the harnes handle and take the bar controls if things start to go south ;). They soon learn to "let go"(tm); they beat that instinct pretty fast.

User avatar
alamos_kiter
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1630
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:41 am
Kiting since: 2004
Gear: yes, I use gear.
Location: Los Alamos
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Re: What is the value of traing kites? I don't get it.

Postby alamos_kiter » Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:01 am

Cray wrote:Trainers ... actually teach wrong body position / bar handling.
Care to point out what's the body position on a trainer vs. unhooked full size kite?
Cray wrote:They have limited value of teaching wind-window to the elderly, becouse elderly need much more time with the kite to develop muscle memory and can't handle concurrently so many different inputs.
Why would a trainer require many different inputs as opposed to a full size kite?
Cray wrote:...The trainer also teaches you that you NEED to hold on to the bar and DON'T LET GO - totally wrong.
And why would that be? The trainer is on a wrist leash - you let go of the bar when things get too much.
Cray wrote:Trainers are being used becouse schools are to cheap to buy proper depower foil and are located at a too windy spots for introduction hour.
What nonsense. First, there are all sorts of trainers, from 2 line foils to 4 line foils with handles to small trainer LEIs, 3 line depower foils, what not. Then, what would a "proper depower foil" be, and why would you want to buy one? Flysurfer? Spleene? Elf?
Cray wrote:Kite handling is not just working the bar, but also respecting the kite/wind, using your whole body to perform kite control and use of depower.
Agree
Cray wrote:If you want to "work" the kite the "proper" way, you need a harnes and a full depower kite.
Bullshit. You don't seem to even know kites flown on handles. Go tell all the land boarders and buggiers out there they don't fly kites "the proper way" :rollgrin:
Cray wrote:I introduce people to kiting using my full depower 6m2 winter foil kite at around 4-8 kts. People learn amasingly fast "the right thing"(tm). Using full body and depower for kite control, not just jerking the bar left-right.
You obviously never flew a 2m open cell foil in decent wind.
Cray wrote:Of course I hold the harnes handle and take the bar controls if things start to go south ;). They soon learn to "let go"(tm); they beat that instinct pretty fast.
I'd like to see that, holding down an overpowered noob with one hand and steering with the other :D

And do you seriously pretend to have a trade mark for "the right thing" and "let go"?

pākihiroa
Medium Poster
Posts: 79
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:24 am
Kiting since: 2009
Gear: Cabrinha
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: What is the value of traing kites? I don't get it.

Postby pākihiroa » Fri Aug 14, 2015 3:29 am

alamos_kiter wrote: You obviously never flew a 2m open cell foil in decent wind.
:lol: In decent wind I kept snapping the stock lines on my Slingshot trainer. Finally replaced them with regular kitesurfing spectra lines. Problem solved.

I think there is some merit to the argument that the 2-line trainer does not teach the 'other dimension' (power control by sheeting in/out).

And also some merit to the letting go thing. My trainer didn't come with a wrist strap. But you can get it to the edge of the window (or the ground !) in a fraction of a second so really no need to ever release.

So, no, a trainer is not exactly the same a a full-size 4-line. But it provides a solid enough foundation so that, when progressing to a 4-line kite, sheeting control and letting go completely are the only remaining skills needed to learn. And, when you go out on a 6m in a decent wind you will be pleased to have those quick/instinctive reactions, learnt from the trainer, already dialled in.

Also, with a bright yellow trainer you might get to experience the fun of playing aerial tag with curious (territorial ?) seagulls. Not too much chance of that happening when flying a huge, lumbering, 4-liner.

joriws
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 811
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:03 am
Kiting since: 0
Gear: Flysurfer, HQ, LF, Nobile, North, Ozone
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 20 times

Re: What is the value of traing kites? I don't get it.

Postby joriws » Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:23 am

lovethepirk wrote:After about 10 times I rigged up a belt and it is much more enjoyable to fly with the belt attachment b/c you can fly it with one hand and relax a little more. Body dragging in higher winds is much easier using this belt.

Image
I'd recommend of implementing somekind of safety to your belt attachment. Weak line or release shackle.

Image

I've had old leather belt to cut in half with my 4-line depower trainer at high winds.

User avatar
balugh
Frequent Poster
Posts: 309
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:52 am
Kiting since: 2007
Local Beach: Hunstanton, Brancaster, and other beaches in Norfolk
Favorite Beaches: ...I need to travel more...:-(
Style: Free ride
Gear: Flysurfer Speed 3 15M
North Rebel 11M
North Rebel 8m
Ozone Light 7m
Spleene Session 140
SuperShinn 135
Brand Affiliation: www.kite-eze.com
Location: Norfolk, UK
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0
Contact:

Re: What is the value of traing kites? I don't get it.

Postby balugh » Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:20 pm

There are some brilliant little trainer kites out there that let people learn a lot in relative safety. I like the

https://www.oceanrodeo.com/products/react

The little inflatables from Ozone and Epic are, I'm sure, good too.

I've also flown and enjoyed the Flysurfer trainer....and it's definitely worth a look.

The 'value' of a trainer depend on the user. A good one will help people develop the requisite instincts and muscle memory to progress.

RedSky
Medium Poster
Posts: 186
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:47 am
Kiting since: 1997
Local Beach: Camber, +Croydon
Gear: Genetrix Hydra
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: What is the value of trainer kites? I don't get it.

Postby RedSky » Sat Aug 15, 2015 4:41 pm

Cray wrote:Of course I hold the harnes handle and take the bar controls if things start to go south ;). They soon learn to "let go"(tm); they beat that instinct pretty fast.
I see this a lot on YouTube, people holding the harness handle. I have taught many to fly and never hold their harness. All you end up doing is loading up the kite and should you let go then your student will catapult into the air and down the beach. How can they appreciate the forces on their body if you are taking that force away.

I always stand close beside them and talk them through it. All they need to know as you pointed out is to let go of the bar. I do sometimes whisper sweet nothings into their ear or give them a wet willy but my services are free and that's the price you pay.

User avatar
Laughingman
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2956
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:35 pm
Kiting since: 2009
Local Beach: Kettle Point, Mitchell's Bay, Rondeau Bay
Favorite Beaches: Kettle Point, Mitchell's Bay, Rondeau Bay, Long Bay, Cayo Guillermo, La Ventana
Gear: Ocean Rodeo Gen6 Flites 10m, 12m Gen2 Roams 6m and 8m, Cloud D 4.8, 6.2, 8.0, 10.4
Xeon Laluz, Mako Wide 150, Jellyfish Custom surf board quad fin 6', LF Impulse Foil and Kanaha Shapes 37" board
Engine Harness with slider
Location: Southwestern Ontario
Has thanked: 15 times
Been thanked: 16 times

Re: What is the value of trainer kites? I don't get it.

Postby Laughingman » Wed Aug 19, 2015 4:21 pm

RedSky wrote:
Cray wrote:Of course I hold the harnes handle and take the bar controls if things start to go south ;). They soon learn to "let go"(tm); they beat that instinct pretty fast.
I see this a lot on YouTube, people holding the harness handle. I have taught many to fly and never hold their harness. All you end up doing is loading up the kite and should you let go then your student will catapult into the air and down the beach. How can they appreciate the forces on their body if you are taking that force away.

I always stand close beside them and talk them through it. All they need to know as you pointed out is to let go of the bar. I do sometimes whisper sweet nothings into their ear or give them a wet willy but my services are free and that's the price you pay.
Really good points, I took some pretty hard hits at first when I thought I could win a "tug of war" with the kite. You will never win that fight.

User avatar
bnthere
Frequent Poster
Posts: 391
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:50 pm
Kiting since: 2000
Local Beach: South Padre Island and South Texas USA

Hood River and the Columbia River Gorge USA
Favorite Beaches: South Padre Island Texas: year round the best flatwater and fall - winter - spring fun wave riding as well.
Style: all styles of kite riding
Gear: Blade
Mystic
WindAlert
Brand Affiliation: Blade
Mystic
WindAlert
Seadoo
Headzone
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Re: What is the value of trainer kites? I don't get it.

Postby bnthere » Sat Aug 22, 2015 2:11 am

this is great, haven't been on here in ages and what a topic I almost missed! cant help but contribute and fuel the fire:

I certainly don't recommend a trainer kite (stunt kite, kids toy) as an essential, or even necessarily beneficial first step ... can make plenty of arguments for the detrimental habits, expectations, and effects it can actually have for many students .... and we definitely don't charge money to show people how to play with one when they want to learn how to kiteboard.

the people that recommend trainer kites are probably the same ones that recommend flying a kite a 12 oclock as some kind of "safe" or "good" place to hold a kite at. (it's not)

I recommend a kiteboarding lesson with a good school and instructors. less time, better info, more results.

concur with redsky ... no good instructors stand behind a student holding their harness, especially beginners, that's the surest sign of someone that doesn't know what they are doing. in front and on the upwind side, for any coaches that don't know (and iko and pasa reps, since you guys don't talk about important things like that in your certification courses)

www.prokitesouthpadre.com

User avatar
Starsky
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 4374
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2004 12:12 pm
Kiting since: 0
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Ontario
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Re: What is the value of trainer kites? I don't get it.

Postby Starsky » Sat Aug 22, 2015 3:28 am

bnthere wrote: the people that recommend trainer kites are probably the same ones that recommend flying a kite a 12 oclock as some kind of "safe" or "good" place to hold a kite at. (it's not)
Hardly


Return to “Kitesurfing”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aspiremr, Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], HALF, Kau pi kite tarifa, MSN [Bot], nothing2seehere and 18 guests

cron