What is the value of trainer kites? I don't get it.

[joriws]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDilCrxP-fw

Well, time is relative and I might have enough of it. I also believe flying those foils is fun. And my ten year old son might also like it a lot. For him I also bought some 2 liners in smaller sizes, which he has to fly for a couple years. Poor boy

Just take a note in the linked video how much the kite is already pulling the flyer and check the colors if his jeans. Now put the same 3m kite to a person 1/2 or 1/3 of the weight and hot launch like done in the video.... For him it is not anymore a trainer.

So be careful - two line trainer with very little pull is a good idea.

[Kamikuza]

Spend the time you'd waste messing about with the bar, flying the HQ kite. Steering the kite is more important than sheeting in and out.

Well, time is relative and I might have enough of it. I also believe flying those foils is fun. And my ten year old son might also like it a lot. For him I also bought some 2 liners in smaller sizes, which he has to fly for a couple years. Poor boy

So back to the question. Would it be possible to attache a full kite depower bar (I have a 2011 cab IDS 55cm) to that small 4 liners foil kite or would it be just to difficult to set things up?

Not 100% sure but I think that HQ kite is a 2-line fixed bridle, with the third being a safety...?

For a four-line fixed bridle kite, adding a bar will not alter the Angle of Attack like LEI or depower foil; rather, pulling the bar to turn or sheet in will just activate the brakes...

YouTube "ozone turbo bar" to see what's happening.

[lovethepirk]

@saferider

I have the HQ300 that I have a belt I made for $3. I think there is a picture of it on this thread. That simple belt allows me to fly it...although not completely safely, with one hand. Flying it with one hand without the belt is doable, but you are asking for problems. The thing can move so fast and can power up so hard if you have only one hand on it it will start looping on you over and over or crash. I had my girlfriend fly it yesterday with the belt and she thought she had it so she gave it the one handed approach and it looped on her then we all got some entertainment when she went face first into the water.

Be very careful with that 3m kite once you hit 20+ winds. You can fly it in that, but you got to keep it at the edge of the window most of the time unless you are safe in the water to do some figure 8's. As that kite moves low thru the center of the window in high winds it pulls really hard.

I learned on it in low winds and you gotta really fly it back and forth in figure 8's or it crashes, in higher winds you can keep it low to the ground at the edge of the window which was great learning for me. Also, I learned to put it down at the edge of the window real gentle vs putting it down in the water and dragging it in full of water. Remember that kite has a completely different attitude in high winds vs low. It becomes quite angry in high winds.

[lovethepirk]

For a four-line fixed bridle kite, adding a bar will not alter the Angle of Attack like LEI or depower foil; rather, pulling the bar to turn or sheet in will just activate the brakes...

YouTube "ozone turbo bar" to see what's happening.

Yes that is a two line fixed bridle with a center line to the trailing edge...3rd line. You can use knots on the trailing edge orange line to make that line overall shorter which alters the angle of attack which from what I learned makes the kite stronger.

One of the things that really bothered me is in all the instructional videos almost all fail to discuss where the bar's center lines and outter lines attached to the kite and what changes in those lengths do to the kite. I still don't know for sure, but after watching a ton of videos I assume that depowering the center lines actually shortens them which makes the angle of attack less and hence less power. Took me a while on the trainer to figure this out and then watching a few kiters in person to see this. The trainer is different b/c when you shorten the center line it powers the kite up!

[Saferider]

For a four-line fixed bridle kite, adding a bar will not alter the Angle of Attack like LEI or depower foil; rather, pulling the bar to turn or sheet in will just activate the brakes...

YouTube "ozone turbo bar" to see what's happening.

Ok. I get closer now. I already understood that pulling the bar on the 4 line foil would just activate the brakes.

In my theory, when I attach a 4 line foil to the 4 line LEI bar, with steering lines on the sides and breaking lines in the center, I actually will loosen the steering lines when I pull the bar towards me. Loosen the steering lines means tightening the breaking lines and therefore that should influence the angle of attack. Is that correct ? see this and jump to 1:28

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJdbI0PyeVc

[L0KI]

Small LEI kites as trainers might be great, and you can use them with the kids when they are ready.
But I will say this again.
Take your 3M foil and go out in 15mph.
Then take it out in 20mph and so on until you are a baddass with that kite.
Keep working with that kite for a dozen sessions.
If you feel like something more challenging, take the kids skateboard and learn to ride that with a foil in a big parking lot, but pad up, helmet up and be in the right wind.
If you've done enough sessions with the foil, you will know what wind is right.
Sheeting a kite for depower and learning is great, but not really super important to getting your basics solid with the (ready to go) kite you already have.
Rock that 3M now, I had many great landboarding sessions on a 3M foil.

[Saferider]

Rock that 3M now, I had many great landboarding sessions on a 3M foil.

How much I would love to. But will take some time till I have it here.

Anyway, I am still curious. Is it possible to put a 4 line foil on a LEI bar? Would this make sense? And would flying characteristics be similar to a LEI kite?

For a four-line fixed bridle kite, adding a bar will not alter the Angle of Attack like LEI or depower foil; rather, pulling the bar to turn or sheet in will just activate the brakes...

Wait a minute....
I already read this...What is a Fixed Bridle Kite? and Sheeting / Trimming Your Kite http://www.kiteboardingevolution.com/wh ... -kite.html and http://www.kiteboardingevolution.com/sheeting.html and http://www.kiteboardingevolution.com/tr ... -kite.html
Now I understand that my theory would only work on a non-fixed bridle kite? I believe I get it...slowly...

fixed bridle kite - we pull the bar to BREAK. Center Lines/ Break Lines pull on the trailing edge of the kite.

vs.

non-fixed bridle kite - pull the bar to POWER. If you want more power, you pull the bar towards yourself (sheet in). If you want less, push the bar away from you (sheet out). When we sheet in (pull the bar ), the kites power increases. We pull the trailing edge of the kite closer to us, which creates more lift. When we sheet the kite out, the kite looses power. We let out some of the back lines, which lets the trailing edge of the kite move further away from us.

Also I saw videos of schools training on small 5-6m LEIs, but with shorter lines. So flight characteristics are the same but lesser power. Would make sense especially if you have kids and can give them the kite later to start with the sport. what you think about that ?

[L0KI]

Rock that 3M now, I had many great landboarding sessions on a 3M foil.

Anyway, I am still curious. Is it possible to put a 4 line foil on a LEI bar? Would this make sense? And would flying characteristics be similar to a LEI kite?

I don't know how to rig one correctly, if it is easily done.
An LEI bar uses the back lines to steer the kite, as I'm sure you've seen.
A foil with a full bridle when used on handles turns by pulling a front line and the back lines are feathered with the handles to adjust power and turning.
So, I don't think it translates directly from four line foil to SLE bar system.
The place to look at a four line sheetable foil would be an Ozone Frenzy, to see how they do it.
I had one a long while back, but I don't remember how the bar system was set up and attached to the kite.
Been a while, and I have old timers disease...or CRS as my wife calls it.

[Kamikuza]

Yes that is a two line fixed bridle with a center line to the trailing edge...3rd line. You can use knots on the trailing edge orange line to make that line overall shorter which alters the angle of attack which from what I learned makes the kite stronger.

No, not altering the AoA. Fixed bridle with the third line being a brake/safety system. If you apply the brakes a little, you get some extra lift though...

Anyway, I am still curious. Is it possible to put a 4 line foil on a LEI bar? Would this make sense? And would flying characteristics be similar to a LEI kite?

For a four-line fixed bridle kite, adding a bar will not alter the Angle of Attack like LEI or depower foil; rather, pulling the bar to turn or sheet in will just activate the brakes...

Wait a minute....
I already read this...What is a Fixed Bridle Kite? and Sheeting / Trimming Your Kite http://www.kiteboardingevolution.com/wh ... -kite.html and http://www.kiteboardingevolution.com/sheeting.html and http://www.kiteboardingevolution.com/tr ... -kite.html
Now I understand that my theory would only work on a non-fixed bridle kite? I believe I get it...slowly...

fixed bridle kite - we pull the bar to BREAK. Center Lines/ Break Lines pull on the trailing edge of the kite.

vs.

non-fixed bridle kite - pull the bar to POWER. If you want more power, you pull the bar towards yourself (sheet in). If you want less, push the bar away from you (sheet out). When we sheet in (pull the bar ), the kites power increases. We pull the trailing edge of the kite closer to us, which creates more lift. When we sheet the kite out, the kite looses power. We let out some of the back lines, which lets the trailing edge of the kite move further away from us.

Also I saw videos of schools training on small 5-6m LEIs, but with shorter lines. So flight characteristics are the same but lesser power. Would make sense especially if you have kids and can give them the kite later to start with the sport. what you think about that ?

You're getting there!


Yes but it's pointless. No. No.

The Turbo bar and it's derivatives have pulleys for a reason...

Forget the bar for the moment. If the kite is 4-line fixed bridle, it's probably designed to be flown off handles. Fixed bridle means the bridles doesn't allow any altering of Angle of Attack. 4-line FB is basically a 2-line FB kite with brakes on the trailing edge - activating the brakes is pulling just the flap of material of the Trailing Edge that is unsupported by the main bridle.

When you're flying FB with handles, you can steer the kite 2 ways: pull the handles, or apply the brakes on one side. Or a combination of both.

What the Turbo bar does is use the pulleys to combine and simulate both pulling the handle and applying the brakes - the pulleys increase the effect, or the range that the bar is being pulled. No pulleys, less effect... a regular LEI bar simply won't be effective enough. As the Ozzie guy says in the video, it works best on kites that like to fly off the brakes... the Turbo bars are a kind of hack.

Think about LEI kites - the Leading Edge is supported by the center lines, the steering lines go to the TE; sheeting the bar in or out pivots the kite around the LE - the AoA alters. Pulling one side of the bar applies some brakes to that wing tip, the kite pivots around that tip.

For a fixed bridle kite, most of the kite from LE to TE is supported by the bridle, attached to the center/power/top lines... it's not going to pivot or alter AoA, even with a bar.

[Saferider]

When you're flying FB with handles, you can steer the kite 2 ways: pull the handles, or apply the brakes on one side. Or a combination of both.

What the Turbo bar does is use the pulleys to combine and simulate both pulling the handle and applying the brakes - the pulleys increase the effect, or the range that the bar is being pulled. No pulleys, less effect... a regular LEI bar simply won't be effective enough. As the Ozzie guy says in the video, it works best on kites that like to fly off the brakes... the Turbo bars are a kind of hack.

Think about LEI kites - the Leading Edge is supported by the center lines, the steering lines go to the TE; sheeting the bar in or out pivots the kite around the LE - the AoA alters. Pulling one side of the bar applies some brakes to that wing tip, the kite pivots around that tip.

For a fixed bridle kite, most of the kite from LE to TE is supported by the bridle, attached to the center/power/top lines... it's not going to pivot or alter AoA, even with a bar.

Ok makes sense now. Thanks! Also watched that video. "Depower bar shootout" on a Foil...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mNxl9KZicM

So maybe the Rush V Pro School 300 is the "most perfect" Trainer Kite atm...that would make sense if you want to compare to the LEI flight characteristics. Not sure if that would be worth the money as most that used it say it get boring after some use. Actually I would like to see a 3 or 3.5 Hydra Pro School with depower function and water relaunch-able abilities. So you could play with it in the water or maybe use it to drag you on a kneeboard etc.

But maybe a good used 5m Waroo or similar would be the better investment. As smaller LEIs are usually made for stronger winds, would it be necessary to change to "lighter(but weaker)" lines to have them fly better in weaker/lighter winds ? Or are those small "Strong wind LEIs" more or less useless in light winds? Lets say 8-12kn....

If those "Strong wind LEIs" are "useless" an EPIC kids kite with 4m could also be a good (but not so cheap) trainer. But 4-5 m usually will have already some good pull and may do funny things with you on land, right? ...but shorter lines may help...

But than again that would be a higher investment.

In conclusion I believe those they say, get the basics with a "better" 2 or 3 Line foil and spend the money into school and material that you will actually use for kitesurfing.

So for a 2 or 3 Line foil around 2.5m we talk about 50 - 150 USD. That money would probably easily be saved later in the instructions. Plus it has a resell value if you would not want it anymore. Makes sense, right. Maybe now I get it !?

The trainer also teaches you that you NEED to hold on to the bar and DON'T LET GO - totally wrong.

...wrong ! A 3 line trainer teaches exactly this ! LET THE BAR GO....