What is the value of trainer kites? I don't get it.

[Carlos_C]

Worth looking at the Flysurfer Viron......seen lots of schools using them

[Saferider]

Flysurfer Viron......seen lots of schools using them

Also there is the HQ Neo. But smallest kite already 6m. I had a look at those de-power kites. But unless you find some used they are expensive. The smaller size may be just big enough to drag you around in water. I am not willing to spend that much money into training gear. For me, it would probably not provide enough value for the price it has. Still the Viron seems also be a good beginner kite for kids. And schools that will use it hundred time the value they get with this kites might also be quiet good.

what is your opinions on that...

...maybe a good used 5m Waroo or similar would be the better investment. As smaller LEIs are usually made for stronger winds, would it be necessary to change to "lighter(but weaker)" lines to have them fly better in weaker/lighter winds ? Or are those small "Strong wind LEIs" more or less useless in light winds? Lets say 8-12kn....

I am asking since I am also interested to get a small LEI for my kids at some point in the future. Those small LEI can be bought used for quiet attractive prices sometimes and could be a "good trainer" for adults. Maybe shorter lines should be used for training purpose?

What you say?

[Cray]

Trainers ... actually teach wrong body position / bar handling.

Care to point out what's the body position on a trainer vs. unhooked full size kite?

I'm talking about introduction of new kiters to kiting, not advanced topics.

They have limited value of teaching wind-window to the elderly, becouse elderly need much more time with the kite to develop muscle memory and can't handle concurrently so many different inputs.

Why would a trainer require many different inputs as opposed to a full size kite?

_Elderly_ require less input and slower learning curve. On trainer they only work their hands, not the hip.

...The trainer also teaches you that you NEED to hold on to the bar and DON'T LET GO - totally wrong.

And why would that be? The trainer is on a wrist leash - you let go of the bar when things get too much.

When you hold a stick and it yanks... what do your instinct do? Let go or hold tight and pull? I've never seen any instructor tell the novice to release the trainer. They always learn (as did I) to hold on.
It's different if your hip is pulled via harness - more chance to learn about leaning back, not to hold the power of trainer with hands but with the hip.

Trainers are being used becouse schools are to cheap to buy proper depower foil and are located at a too windy spots for introduction hour.

What nonsense. First, there are all sorts of trainers, from 2 line foils to 4 line foils with handles to small trainer LEIs, 3 line depower foils, what not. Then, what would a "proper depower foil" be, and why would you want to buy one? Flysurfer? Spleene? Elf?

1. What do kite schools use as a trainer? Kites with handles? Mostly 2lines with bar and some 2 lines with bar + 3rd safety line.
2. My opinion: proper foil as a trainer is a 4 line, bar, open cell with low winds for the size of a kite

If you want to "work" the kite the "proper" way, you need a harnes and a full depower kite.

Bullshit. You don't seem to even know kites flown on handles. Go tell all the land boarders and buggiers out there they don't fly kites "the proper way"

Stick to the topic... novice kiters.... not landboard/buggy pros.
And for the record: my first kite intro was on a kite with handles. Didn't like that kite and wouldn't put a novice on it.

I introduce people to kiting using my full depower 6m2 winter foil kite at around 4-8 kts. People learn amasingly fast "the right thing"(tm). Using full body and depower for kite control, not just jerking the bar left-right.

You obviously never flew a 2m open cell foil in decent wind.

Of course I hold the harnes handle and take the bar controls if things start to go south . They soon learn to "let go"(tm); they beat that instinct pretty fast.

I'd like to see that, holding down an overpowered noob with one hand and steering with the other
And do you seriously pretend to have a trade mark for "the right thing" and "let go"?

[/quote]
He's not overpowered - usually just sends the kite through the power zone and doesn't expect the force. And unlike him I know how much power my kite generates in low winds. I either hold him or steer the kite into window - depends on the "lesson"(tm) I want to give.

Hope you liked "the Answers"(tm).

[Cray]

Of course I hold the harnes handle and take the bar controls if things start to go south . They soon learn to "let go"(tm); they beat that instinct pretty fast.

I see this a lot on YouTube, people holding the harness handle. I have taught many to fly and never hold their harness. All you end up doing is loading up the kite and should you let go then your student will catapult into the air and down the beach. How can they appreciate the forces on their body if you are taking that force away.

I always stand close beside them and talk them through it. All they need to know as you pointed out is to let go of the bar. I do sometimes whisper sweet nothings into their ear or give them a wet willy but my services are free and that's the price you pay.

It mostly is talking. I hold them only as needed during introduction (1st or 2nd time with the kite), don't hold them to reduce kite force. Introduction time for me is always in nice, low wind and the pull only comes when they send the kite through the power zone. It's easy to hold that and I have plenty of time to see it coming. The lesson however is very valuable .

[alamos_kiter]

...Hope you liked "the Answers"(tm).

Yes I do like them. Maybe there's a misunderstanding: IMO people should buy a trainer and get hours on it BEFORE they call a kite school for the first time. With a little help of youtube, a friend or kiter they will be able to learn kite handling and control. When they arrive at your school, they have the muscle memory down, and you can start to work the important stuff on a big kite. It's just a waste of money and wind to have a kite instructor watch a noob crashing a kite.

[maurice_k]

Hi there,

At our schools we do not use trainer kites at all. It is a complete waist of time and money for the student. It is better and proven that when you use the short line technique and sitting at first the progression is faster for the student.
Short line technique has all the factors and it gives the student the direct feel of the normal kite without the power of long lines and therefor safer.

Trainer kites have no extra imput and many students struggle coming from trainer to L.E kites.
It is better to let them improve faster and then they can rent from the centre with beach boys after their qualification.

Hope this gives a bit of insight.

Thanks,
Maurice

http://www.seabreezekiteclub.com

[alamos_kiter]

The trick is the use of a trainer BEFORE the student goes to the kite school. Do you say, from your experience, somebody who has never touched a kite in his life learns faster than somebody who is an avid powerkiter? Give me a break.

Short lines are good to limit the apparent wind on any kite, and sitting down is good when wind's too high for the student's skill on the respective kite. Or when it's a complete noob and he has to concentrate so hard on the steering he's not able to counter balance the kite pull. Disregarding the make of that kite.

...It is better to let them improve faster and then they can rent from the centre with beach boys after their qualification.

I'm sure this is better for your business, you make more money out of the student. I have yet to see a single student who had never touched a kite before, who has acceptable kite skill after the typical 3 x 2 hour lessons. And "beach boys" must be a specialty of your local beach. We don't have such thing, if you ignore the band from the 60s for a minute.

The other scenario is:

- The noob learns kite skill on his own trainer, logging 15 or 20 or 30 hours in different conditions;
- when he has good kite control, he goes to a kite school and learns the handling of a full size kitesurfing kite and the rest of kite related knowledge, which is expensive enough;
- then he goes out to buy his first set of gear, usually cheap one or two year old 2nd hand, to trash it over the next 2 years;
- by now he roughly knows what he needs for his particular conditions, he steps up and buys some more expensive gear, fitting his bill.

[sflinux]

I always see people advising beginners to get a training kite when just starting. I have never understood this. What do you think? Am I missing something?

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2348379&p=526257
Personally, I think the best way to learn kite control skills is with a fixed kite. A $100 two line foil kite (or 3rd line for relaunch/leash) is a great way to learn to respect the power of a kite. You learn how to generate power, and learn where to put the kite to lower the power. You can adjust the line lengths to adjust the speed of the kite. You can change the bar length to adjust the turning speed (most have bars that are too big imo). Foil kites are resilient, so repairs are few and far between. They are fun to share with friends. Once you have mastered a trainer foil, now you can move up to a larger more powerful 4 line kite.
A properly tuned unhooked small (2-5M) 4 line kite should fly the same as your foil. I recommend flying fixed and unhooked. Using this technique, when you get into trouble you can just let go of the bar. There is no need for a harness, or chicken loop. This also allows you to learn how to properly trim your kite. Once you have mastered your smallest 4 line kite, then you can introduce a harness.
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viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2361996&p=632129

[RickI]

I saw a guy holding about a 15 year old kid's harness with a 10 m kite in dead onshore wind blowing 15 to 20 kts., directly upwind of a bunch of guys setting up including myself on Saturday. I understand he had already slammed the kite down once before I arrived. I went up and talked to the guy, another local kiter was already at it before I came up. He said he was training his son?

I said, no father should have his son out with a full sized kite, on the beach dead upwind of a bunch of people in such conditions. He was very likely to get dragged on his face into people directly downwind, tear up kites, pickup some line cuts, put himself in the hospital, etc.. The father said it was ok, his son could handle it. The other guy managed to at least talk the guy into walking further down the beach to where he wasn't going to be pulled into bystanders.

This is what trainer kites are for, practicing on land.

Full sized kitesurfing kites are for use in the water, not in dead onshore wind for guys that aren't capable of riding up wind.

p.s. - later on, dad stayed out until enveloped by a nasty squall after everyone else had landed and secured in advance. Next he brilliantly came on the beach, kite at the vertical while the storm raged on instead of just emergency depowering the damn thing and securing. Kiting isn't as easy or as safe as it might seem. Get quality pro lessons and use common sense.

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