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What is the value of trainer kites? I don't get it.

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Kamikuza
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Re: What is the value of trainer kites? I don't get it.

Postby Kamikuza » Mon Aug 24, 2015 5:19 am

bnthere wrote:yes it definitely is info overload

lessons and info etc are somewhat catered to the clientele ... is it someone that taking one lesson and then 'might be back again sometime' or is someone that signed up for a course and we are taking them out 4 or 5 times over the week or whatever, we are going to do it differently for each.

the client that has multiple session will get everything passed over many times. radios are key to increasing the amount of good info you can pass onto a client, for example you have them on a task like dw bodydrag or something and they are mastering it or at least doing what you want to see so you know they are skill building. now you can reiterate other info while they are working on their skill (for example reminding them to be ready to use their release after a crash as that is a likely time to develop a line tangle, or to be aware of their surroundings and estimate where they might come into the beach if they headed back now, or whatever.

its also the more basic info that gets and needs to be covered again and again, as people get good at handling the kites they are learning a lot on their own and retaining skills. its things like reminding them to line up dw of the edge of the wind during an assisted launch and then move upwind until they have the wind and are flying the kite, putting the kite down when they need to instead of trying to keep it flying while multitasking (like when messing with harness or helmet etc)

the one time client gets as much as we can, generally the focus is on kite flying and fun then backtracking to less exciting but critical info as things progress (and there are in the end extremely few one time clients, nearly everyone continues with more sessions either with us or down the road in the future at other places, a super high percentage of lesson clientele at least in my experience is in it to win it, not a lot of 1 time want to try its and then don't keep going)
Right :thumb:

But you can't beat practicing kite handling. $100 trainer is good for that....

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Re: What is the value of trainer kites? I don't get it.

Postby lovethepirk » Mon Aug 24, 2015 5:50 am

Paddleboarded out from shore a quarter mile today, placed the trainer on the board, jumped overboard with my bar and launched the kite then body dragged back onto kite and had a blast hauling ass for a quarter mile back in.

One day I'll get to kiteboard :angryfire:

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Re: What is the value of trainer kites? I don't get it.

Postby joriws » Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:59 am

OnB wrote:I'm not sure many people here are suggesting stunt kites for training purposes.
I don't know how it turned out that kite school/instructor should teach with stunt kites.

The idea of stunt kite is that you learn presice control of kite at your own and with safe. Not paying anybody for flying lesson and just use ridiculous cheap kite. You know, pull left hand and kite turns CCW. Learn how to keep the kite in the air, do precise tricks, boxes, figure of 8, experience wind window. Kite for free for hours.

On the other hand there are self learners with full size kites


with one you prefer? Giving above guys a trainer (or stunt kite) or full size kite?

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Re: What is the value of trainer kites? I don't get it.

Postby alamos_kiter » Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:44 am

bnthere wrote:... The interesting thing about Padre is that there isn't a lot of business. I probably work less than 20% of the time I could if we had the clients. its kind of sad but lets me ride a lot (and travel).
Finally you said the key thing. When people come to your school having already good kite skills, because they bought a 100$ foil and practiced for 15 hours (with a little help from kiters / youtube / friends), then you lose money.

I'm sure you are a good kite instructor (just change the pics on your website), but don't be arrogant in the attempt to make more cash. A 2-3m foil is not a stunt kite, and nobody here recommends kites at 12 o'clock.

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Re: What is the value of trainer kites? I don't get it.

Postby L0KI » Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:07 am

joriws wrote:
OnB wrote:I'm not sure many people here are suggesting stunt kites for training purposes.
I don't know how it turned out that kite school/instructor should teach with stunt kites.

The idea of stunt kite is that you learn precise control of kite at your own and with safe. Not paying anybody for flying lesson and just use ridiculous cheap kite. You know, pull left hand and kite turns CCW. Learn how to keep the kite in the air, do precise tricks, boxes, figure of 8, experience wind window. Kite for free for hours.

On the other hand there are self learners with full size kites
Which one you prefer? Giving above guys a trainer (or stunt kite) or full size kite?
Not sure if you read the whole thread, or read what I posted...because the point you are trying to make agrees with what I've said, with the exception of the stunt part.
I believe a stunt kite is not really the same as a small foil traction kite.
Something like a Rev Stunt Kite is fun, but handles very differently than a traction foil trainer.
I believe a small foil traction kite is a great trainer for kiteboarding and they are cheap and can be used always for landboarding, or as a snow kite.
The sizes I bought are 3.3M and 5.5M which are bigger than what many people buy for their first day, but I wanted good toys for landboarding, and I have big hairy brass balls. :lol:
In case you did not read my posts, I said that starting out on a full sized LEI kite was not a good idea unless you have a great deserted location like Bnthere has.

And the year that I learned to kite, there was no such thing as a bow or SLE.
Kiteboarding C kites had little depower and were nowhere near as easy and stable as what we have now, so going straight to a two line Wipika Inferno was a bad idea.
There were no real safety flagging systems worth a shite either.
The first water kite that I tried to learn on was a Wind Tools Mosquito 9.5M Water Foil which was similar to a pickup truck power and it turned slower than a 1932 farm tractor.
Sometimes I wondered if the animal who was teaching me, was trying to kill me. :wink:

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Re: What is the value of trainer kites? I don't get it.

Postby Saferider » Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:35 am

Hi there. I am still a beginner. Or better, I even never had a kite in my hands. In some other thread pretty much everybody suggested to start out with a trainer kite. So I bought one of those HQ 3 line trainers in 3m. Let's see... Also I got a 4 line foil kite with 2.5m that you usually fly on two handles. I know for the model I have they also sell a cheap made depower bar, for not so cheap money...

Here is some video and how he changes the handles to their bar...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDilCrxP-fw

I was actually thinking about how difficult it would be to combine that 2.5m foil with a 55cm 4 line full sized LEI kitebar. In theory that should be possible. Did someone try this ? Could you explain what to watch out for setting the bar to the lines ?

I believe it may be a good and maybe also cost effective solution to start on a good and small 4 line foil and combine it with the bar you will later use on your power kite ? That makes sense or not? Thanks...
Last edited by Saferider on Mon Aug 24, 2015 10:05 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: What is the value of trainer kites? I don't get it.

Postby L0KI » Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:50 am

This video is a perfect example of a foil kiter knowing his stuff, ...how the wind works, how a kite flies and what it is capable of.....before going in the water where he can drown.
Or before going to a beach with an inflatable kite than he cannot kill as quickly and safely as he can with this kite.
To answer your question, the bar that he rigged is nice.
I don't know it it is needed if you have a three line foil trainer in 3M size, that is already on a bar.
A bar system that sheets in and out (depowers) is nice but there are some good lessons to be learned on a kite that does not have magic awesome depower built in.
I would go fly that 3M with somebody with a bit of experience and start building your skills right now.

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Re: What is the value of trainer kites? I don't get it.

Postby Kamikuza » Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:51 am

Saferider wrote:Hi there. I am still a beginner. Or better, I even never had a kite in my hands. In some other thread pretty much everybody suggested to start out with a trainer kite. So I bought one of those HQ 3 line trainers in 3m. Let's see... Also I got a 4 line foil kite with 2.5m that you usually flight on two handles. I know for the model I have they also sell a cheap made depower bar.

Here is some video and how he changes the bar...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDilCrxP-fw

I was actually thinking about how difficult it would be to combine that 2.5m foil with a 55cm 4 line kite bar. In theory that should be possible. Did someone try this ? Could you explain what to watch out for setting the bar to the lines ?

I believe it made be a good and maybe also cost effective solution to start on a good and small 4 line foil and combine it with the bar you will later use on your power kite ? That makes sense or not? Thanks...
Spend the time you'd waste messing about with the bar, flying the HQ kite. Steering the kite is more important than sheeting in and out.

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Re: What is the value of trainer kites? I don't get it.

Postby Saferider » Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:57 am

Kamikuza wrote:Spend the time you'd waste messing about with the bar, flying the HQ kite. Steering the kite is more important than sheeting in and out.
Well, time is relative and I might have enough of it. I also believe flying those foils is fun. And my ten year old son might also like it a lot. For him I also bought some 2 liners in smaller sizes, which he has to fly for a couple years. Poor boy :lol:

So back to the question. Would it be possible to attache a full kite depower bar (I have a 2011 cab IDS 55cm) to that small 4 liners foil kite or would it be just to difficult to set things up?

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Re: What is the value of trainer kites? I don't get it.

Postby joriws » Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:58 am

OnB wrote:Something like a Rev Stunt Kite is fun, but handles very differently than a traction foil trainer.
I believe a small foil traction kite is a great trainer for kiteboarding and they are cheap and can be used always for landboarding, or as a snow kite.
Well Revolution Stunt kite is not sub-20USD kite. The Rev stunt was just an example from me (I am referring my posting at page 4 - the rev youtube link) what can done at the top end of stunt kiting. My stunt proposal is that you could buy from Amazon 17USD stunt kite for practise the kite basics, basic trick flying.

Kiteboarding-brand trainer foil kites are much more expensive even on two lines. I know there are china-no-brand-foil-trainers for 30USD but usually they do not fly well -> not RTF (ready to fly) because usually requires tuning. You probably need to invest > 70USD for "brand kite". But investing 70USD for 2-line trainer - no - I would directly go for 4 line trainer to teach how to let the kite fly with speed for power and not to oversheet, reverse relaunch from bar etc.

My kites are (referring to thread subject):
- stunt kite (from 1997-98)
- hq hydra 3.5m with 4 lines depower-mod (actual trainer kite), can be used ice kiting
- flysurfer psycho4 6 squaremeters used like a trainer at lower winds (3kn - 12kn)
- I great third/fourth -hand find :)
- I ride it myself when nuking like at mountains >30kn.

So I agree you OnB about traction kite trainer, they are usable. But I could also recommend new kiteboarding learner to have cheap stunt kite for having more kite flight time and for safe practise almost at any location, stunt handles turbulence at parking lot better IMO. I think that two line 1sqm trainer kite and two line stunt kite are pretty similar when teaching the basics, steering the kite in the air.


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