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What is the value of trainer kites? I don't get it.

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L0KI
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Re: What is the value of traing kites? I don't get it.

Postby L0KI » Thu Aug 13, 2015 1:40 am

Starsky wrote: She will drag herself around on snow, skates, skateboards and eventually a snowboard long before she is put in the water, and when she does take that step, she will have long had her relaunch skills on lock, and it will be one more intuitive part of the overall process she goes through to become a lifelong safe and skilled kiter.
She already knows which one to put up on any given day and understands that kites have a safe range and that it takes a quiver to do this sport safely.
This is good....especially with kids.
I got 3.3M and 5.5M Windwing foil kites and learned to fly them on the beach.
Then learned to fly them on the beach on several types of mountain boards.
Then learned to fly them on the beach with a Dirtsurfer two wheeler.
By the time I went in the water I knew about the power of a kite and when to put up which one, when to let go of the kite, what a lull and surge were about, how to dive the kite to get on the board and get moving (basically the water start), how to slow down and speed up by kite position and edging, what happens when you ride with the kite high or low, how to go upwind or not go upwind, to be aware of what was in front of me and watch for others, what it felt like to be harnessed to power at the waist and how to quickly get that loop off the hook.
And best of all...what it felt like to go 35 +MPH down the beach!
Landboarding or snow kiting is a great way to learn without the drowning factor added into the mix.

The boredom factor is minimized when you add the moving board challenge once the initial skills are there.
My ADD brain would have never had the patience to use a 1.5M trainer for a long period of time before my mind wandered looking for additional stimulation, so the landboards were/are awesome.

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Bille
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Re: What is the value of traing kites? I don't get it.

Postby Bille » Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:35 am

OnB wrote: ...

Then learned to fly them on the beach with a Dirtsurfer two wheeler.
...
Do you think it would be possible, to steer one of those using
your knees and hips, instead of your ankles ?

I always wanted to try one of those ; all decked out in motocross armor !!


Bille

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Re: What is the value of traing kites? I don't get it.

Postby L0KI » Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:48 am

Bille, It's all hips and knees and body lean.
Ankles don't help, in fact I tend to think they make the learning curve harder.
You would have no problem learning how to ride one.
And you are in the best place in USA to own one.
They get more stable the faster you go.
A buddy of mine rode his at Ivanpah dry lake bed and was going 50mph and was perfectly stable and comfortable.
Your adrenalin addiction will be well fed with a foil kite and a Dirtsurfer at Ivanpah
We also have spent a fair amount of time with the Dirtsurfer and a Skimbat Kitewing.
PM me and we can talk details.
If you want one, we can make that happen, I have several here.

Here are a couple pics of me at the beach in Corpus before I learned to kite in the water.
Plus a couple of pics from the the world wide interwebs.
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Re: What is the value of traing kites? I don't get it.

Postby Thor SFBay » Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:49 am

I think it would be awesome if kiteboarding schools would rent out Ocean Rodeo React 4 line trainer kites before you take your first lesson. Maybe give the student a short 10 minute lesson on setting up the trainer kite and then let them have it for a week for $50. The reason I say that is because I found that the difference between a 2 line trainer kite and the real thing was huge. But it's hard to recommend buying a React trainer kite because it costs too much (about $400).

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Re: What is the value of traing kites? I don't get it.

Postby pākihiroa » Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:00 am

Small trainer kites need to be actively flown. They are so quick that, to fly them aggressively, the flyer rapidly develops instinctive muscle memory. And they also provide benign introduction to kite loops.

I insisted that my teenage daughter get proficient on a trainer before she could progress to getting onto the water with a full size 4-line kite. She had to be able to fly the kite while looking at the ground not at the kite, hover it at the edge of the window, launch/land from the edge of the window, dive it full power at the ground and pull it out at the last moment, fly it full power across the window, and be able to pull herself from sitting to standing position while diving the kite from 11 or 1 o'clock (simulated water start)

Not sure what set up you all are using but here's a tip: Put a windsurfing 'harness line' on the bar. Then the beginner (wearing a harness of course) can hook in and get a good feel for what its really like to fly a 4-line kite, ie: when the centre lines take the power and the rider is only providing the steering input. With this set-up can practice flying with one hand (and isn't that the first thing beginners are going to have to do to get from the land to the water or to do their first solo water start ?).

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Re: What is the value of traing kites? I don't get it.

Postby Bille » Thu Aug 13, 2015 5:28 am

OnB wrote: ...
If you want one, we can make that happen, I have several here.
The Thread tidal was : What is the value of trainer kites ?

That would be , because you can make a devise like that Dirtsurfer go;
go Real Fast !!

Ramona had hers out at Ivanpah, in a 40+mph wind ; it was the same
day the landsailer went 126.6-mph , and broke the record.

This is going to be Fun !!!

Bille

She's out on a cold day, with light winds in this shot :
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Re: What is the value of traing kites? I don't get it.

Postby KYLakeKiter » Thu Aug 13, 2015 5:48 am

Starsky wrote:Passion? Presumption of superior intellect? Who is doing the reading into things? If your not looking for discussion, why post? If your put off by reasoned responses thats not really my issue.

I laid out more than a couple points why a trainer is a good idea and openly questioned the judgement of those that can't see their merit. Went right into detail beyond pull left turn left, pull right turn right and prefaced it with the fact it was a rant that speaks to the underlying issue of people rushing to get in over their head in a sport with significant inherent disaster potential.

@ Salmon. I hold you in no contempt. There were no insults or derogatory comments made. I said you are free to do as you deem safe with your kid, and simply outlined how its going down with mine to illustrate that trainer kites are a big part of it, and that there is a pretty long drawn out progression at work. Do I expect adults to take the same time frame? Of course not and repeated as much, even outlining my own time frame for clarity. I read no more into your post than you wrote, and made no more of it than you meant. What I do with my kids has no reflection on what you do with yours. As to feeling how I do things is better than others. Well. In many cases it is. There are lots of others around that have used the same approach. In many cases I've taken my cues from them. They are all as good or better kiters parents or what have you than I am. This is a forum. Its a place for people to share their experience so as to help reduce the risk and improve the sport for others. Thats exactly the intent of that rant. Don't like it.... whatever, don't take my advice. Someone else will benefit from it just the same.

As to KY. I quite obviously think its stupid to simply take issue with the fact that I take issue with something and will goad you every time you fail to bring anything to the discussion beyond your opinion on my opinion. You wanna simply poke? Maybe bring your A game, cause so far your pretty weak sport. Hows that tone reflecting for ya? I'm not here to be your friend, but that doesn't mean I'm not nice enough to let you know where you go wrong.
As I expected. You want to be condescending to people and then act like you don't. I have no desire to make any kind of list for you. I previously stated my opinion on trainer kites as did others. Nothing good enough for your superiority complex, so why bother. My game may be weak because I don't care to play the game, but your self awareness is seriously lacking. Oh yea, thanks for the concern, but I won't look to you to figure out where I go wrong.

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Re: What is the value of traing kites? I don't get it.

Postby joriws » Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:14 am

Why trainer kite has to be 2 or 3 lines on previous 4 pages of text? I've full 4-line depower trainer kite just for the reason that I can teach my friends and kid how kite with depower is handled and flies, how you backstall it for reverse flying etc, all big kite tricks..

For learning how to steer a kite in the sky, also much cheaper two line stunt kites can be used. And with advanced stunt kites takes you much higher on kiteflying skills compared to power kites.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87JvCGMC514

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Re: What is the value of traing kites? I don't get it.

Postby alamos_kiter » Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:20 am

joriws wrote:Why trainer kite has to be 2 or 3 lines ...
Because those are the common small open cell foils, which are cheap (i.e. a Peter Lynn 2m is around 130€), easy handling, and you can slam them into the ground as often as you please. They also have enough power in 20kn to give you a real work out and drag you around.

I just read here on another thread, people discussing loops and downloops in the waves and are afraid to try them... this is what I was talking about. When you hone your technique on a small kite, you have no problem to try all those things and perfect your technique, because you're not punished.

Unfortunately most kiters are more interested in getting up on the board and learning the first dangling 3foot jump than in learning to fly a kite. When they're into the sport, they are stuck on their lack of kite skill.

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Re: What is the value of traing kites? I don't get it.

Postby SSK » Thu Aug 13, 2015 5:10 pm

My thinking is probably colored by the fact that I learned without one, and by the fact that where I kite for the cost of a trainer kite ($200-300?) You could have about 4-5 hours of instruction one on one from a good teacher in nearly ideal conditions.
@ OldPeople

I think you hit it on the head in that "where" and "when" and "how often" you can get on the water really changes the utility of trainers. Your perspective and mine are based on learning and riding in ideal conditions, but I have been and ridden in places that are not. I been to places that I have no idea how people learn there, and know I would have struggled. Probably would not have picked up the sport.

In ideal conditions such as Corpus or OBX most people do not need any trainer time to learn. I know most of the schools in OBX do not do any trainer time anymore. Not to say that trainer time would not be beneficial, but you can walk a student out into wide open, waist deep, warm, water, with sandy bottom. Have wind that is consistent, smooth, and in a favorable direction. Also very likely to get a few days in a row like that. You can be standing right behind them as they can safely and comfortably learn to fly a small inflateable (4,6,8M). Soon they are body dragging and most are soon on a board. Then you are on a downwinder for miles in shallow water with someone chasing you on a jet ski. That is how I learned and taught my daughter, but we are spoiled to have those conditions and access to them. After 2-3 lessons most people are up and riding although walking back upwind on their own.
However, a lot of places are not like that and the learning is far far slower. The student may be immediately in deep water, the winds may be shifty and inconsistent. May be a small area to stay in with obstacles down wind. May not be able to get more than a day at a time. In those places having a lot of trainer time would be really valuable and make that initial learning happen much faster. Also a lot of people may get a couple of lessons and then go back home not to ride until next vacation. Not everyone lives in those ideal situations, and be consistent on the water. Taking that trainer home, makes a big difference.

OldPeople, I am also guessing that you have a background in wind sports like windsurfing. I windsurfed for years before kiting, so what I thought was real intuitive I learned is not for a lot of people. It would be white capping and I would ask my daughter were is the wind coming from and how would you launch your kite. She could not tell me. Or the wind would crank up or go down and I say the wind came up/down so you were over/under powered and she would say "It did? I was?". I have actually seen people on the beach with trainers trying to launch it with the kite upwind of them. Thinking that is the perfect person to benefit from a trainer. Point is those without a lot of wind sport experience will also get more utility.


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