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Suicide + flagout line leash combo

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ivan-d
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Suicide + flagout line leash combo

Postby ivan-d » Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:48 pm

Is there such a thing as a suicide + flagout line leash-in-one?

I'm thinking something that's attached to both the chicken loop and the flagout line, so that if the kite drops and crap hits the fan the rider can first disconnect from the suicide line, and if the flagout line situation isn't any safer then disconnect from that too. The simplest setup I can picture is using 2 leashes, and attaching them to different sides of the harness so I can quickly distinguish between the suicide and the flagout line leashes. Does that sound safe? Has anyone / any company thought of a better setup?

The reason I want something like this is so I can ride unhooked, with plenty of safety, and with the least amount of hassle (re-attaching the kite lines / bar after dropping to the flagout ine can be a pain).

P.S. Did the requisite search in the forum. Didn't find anything.

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Re: Suicide + flagout line leash combo

Postby Starsky » Wed Jan 25, 2017 7:06 pm

The amount of depower on most kites these day makes that a bit overkill. You'd basically be increasing risk by adding clutter and complexity. Besides a leash on either side would negate anything more than a simple raley.

Suicide set up is not quite Russian roulette! 98% of the time you are able to get the bar back and hook in to relaunch without any drama. 1.9% of the time you might get a second yank then be able to simply get the bar, and .01% you might have to go for the release on the leash.

It has worked well for countless riders going back eons to the time before high depower kites.

Don't be afraid, unhook. You get a little experience at it and you will see the folly of your question.

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Re: Suicide + flagout line leash combo

Postby ivan-d » Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:08 pm

I've had to release to the flagout line more than once before due to the bar wrapping around the lines and starting to loop (no amount of letting go of the bar helped). I imagine that would have translated to at least one lost kite by now (or impacts of the freewheeling kite with other riders). The only thing that de-escalated the situation was the 100% depower flagout line. It being winter now, I ride a foil kite in the snow, and the depower from releasing the bar is nowhere near 100% on many occasions (especially if the kite falls to the ground and lies in the power zone); I absolutely have to be able to release it to the 5th line, as the risk of losing a freed kite is even greater up in the mountains. Hence, my idea to have 2 leashes attached to both release points. (I wouldn't normally bother with this stuff, but I accidentally got unhooked once last winter, and realized how much better carving in the snow can be when the kite pulls through the hands, and not from my navel; I guess it's the same effect on the water)

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Re: Suicide + flagout line leash combo

Postby edt » Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:31 pm

ivan-d wrote:Is there such a thing as a suicide + flagout line leash-in-one?
I call it "half suicide" but the manufacturers have all kinds of names for it. It has become the standard for riding suicide with the option of using your QR to release to a single line. What they do is use a figure 8 stainless steel piece you hook into that so you are riding suicide but if you use the QR it works. Like in this photo:

Image

You can easily convert a normal bar to half suicide by adding either a figure 8 or a stainless steel o-ring like so:

Image

When you do this make sure the o-ring is big enough to slip easily through the various safety parts at the end of the chicken loop. Also never clip directly on to your chicken loop always get a figure 8 or o-ring and clip on to that. The reason you don't want to clip directly on to your chicken loop is that it will snag on your spreader loop hook and then you have no safety at all. The o-ring or figure 8 gives you just a little bit of extra space between the clip on your leash and your spreader bar hook, so when you hook back in, it doesn't accidentally snag.

Image

What we call "suicide" is I guess "old suicide" where you clipped above the chicken loop entirely and your only option is complete release of the kite.

This method of rigging has pretty much died out, not for safety reasons but because modern bars have a sort of slot in both the bar and the chicken loop so when you unhook the chicken loop slots into the control bar and brings it nice and horizontal so you can use both hands on the control bar to hook back in, instead of the old way where you had one hand on the control bar, and the other hand fiddling with the chicken loop, lining it up so it's horizontal.

Image

nobody except I think Ruben Lenten actually rides full suicide like this anymore.

Most pros right now are actually riding the way you kind of suggest, which is half-suicide where if you drop the bar, it won't flag out, but if you deliberately use the QR it works as intended.

There's a ton of posts in this forum by me, I think I always call it "half suicide" if you do a search for half-suicide they will all come up.

I use a long handle pass leash so I can easily wrap it around my body so when I drop the bar, I'm always crawling back up the leash line but it sounds like this sort of half suicide setup and a short leash (where you can easily reach the QR at all times) would work for you.
Last edited by edt on Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Suicide + flagout line leash combo

Postby ivan-d » Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:53 pm

Thanks for the detailed response, edt.

The first system you showed is the Ozone Megatron, which is what I have on my Ozone Frenzy. I recall reading about the half-suicide mode when I first got it, but for some reason I was left with the impression that it may be a bit difficult to reach the quick release. Perhaps, I figured it wrong. I'll take another look at the whole setup and especially how long the leash has to be so it's long enough for unrestrained unhooked riding, but also short enough to allow me to reach the QR. I'll probably end up fiddling with the length of an old leash I have lying around. For my water kite I'll need to devise something like what you have in your other screenshot (or, since it's the Slingshot bar which has a fabric ring around the flagout line ring I may be able to use them in combinatiom), and will definitely do some static/live testing to ensure maximum safety.

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Re: Suicide + flagout line leash combo

Postby edt » Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:55 pm

yeah get your leash length right and you will like it a lot I think.

Oh and always leash to the front not the back! Pretty hard to get to the QR if it's all behind you, lol.

If you dont have a front leash attachment point, you can add an attachment point directly to the spreader bar someplace.
Last edited by edt on Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Suicide + flagout line leash combo

Postby Starsky » Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:57 pm

We can agree that unhooked on snow is amazing.

On foils... I get the danger of a full window pop. Cant help you there. I referred to high depower kites. Even today's C kites fit in that segment. Suicide was coined on C kites from back in the day and only really widely used on water. IMO it's sketchy to try rig a limited depower kite suicide.... especially on land, regardless of how dialled in you have the length of your leash. Have been yanked by old school kites rigged suicide a few times way back when and was always lucky enough to be in open water and get away with it injury free. They would yank you and drop you... just like a foil from mid window. Always way worse than the initial wipeout. Never was the scenario move slowly enough to reach for the chicken loop and deploy it before becoming airborne. You drop the bar, the leash tensions, and your flying. If your looking for safety, I think it lies in being happy with the possibility of reset after letting go of the bar while riding on land. I unhook on snow a lot, always leashed to a 5th line only. You get a lot closer to the truest sense of the term leashing suicide on land. Besides, its not like its all that hard to reset on land on the occasion that you let go.

Sorry can't help with your dilemma.
Last edited by Starsky on Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Suicide + flagout line leash combo

Postby ivan-d » Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:10 pm

@Starsky, No worries about helping me with the issue; I appreciate your opinion anyway.

Yeah, I feel a lot safer when I release the bar on the water -- the only time the kite will keep pulling is if there is a line wrap or such. And getting dragged around the water for a bit is usually no biggie. Not so when there are rocks and other obstacles around.

@edt -- I always attach to the front, and I always use a short leash since I never ride unhooked (unless it's accidental). 99% of the kiters I see out there attach their leash to the ring that slides on the hose at the back of the harness; only 1% of them ride unhooked. I've told anyone who'd listen to attach to a fixed point at the front of the harness, but rarely does anyone follow my suggestion (fortunately, those people I care most about adjusted that habit).

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Re: Suicide + flagout line leash combo

Postby jeromeL » Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:17 am

Sounds like a short leash rigged in suicide or half suicide like some call it would to the trick.
Given you don't plan on passing the bar...

If you let go leash is short so you have access to quick release easily and you can still release leash.

But would be nice to have a long leash where you can somehow hit quick release from leash directly.

Lol on another subject I let go of my kite by mistake in offshore condition the other day in Aruba at fisherman hut, I was sorting out inverted line and while doing so the kite launched and started looping so let go, and watched the kite fly away... I was able to swim to the bar and sort out bar and come back to shore, that was pretty funny.

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Re: Suicide + flagout line leash combo

Postby edt » Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:28 am

jeromeL wrote: But would be nice to have a long leash where you can somehow hit quick release from leash directly.
it's a nice idea but it makes your decision tree more complicated so impacts your reaction time negatively. With the double leash system you now have two dongles you can pull near the harness. It doesn't seem like much but it will make you react a little bit slower because you have more stuff you can do. I like it simple. Rig half suicide and if you need to also hit the QR after you have dropped the bar, get a short enough leash that you can reach it. Maybe also shorten the chicken loop to bring it an inch or two closer. If you are riding in a place where losing your kite is a disaster because civilization is so far away and you might not be able to post-hole it all the way back, I don't want a long leash anyway.


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