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Kite Surfboards vs "normal" Surfboards

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TomW
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Re: Kite Surfboards vs "normal" Surfboards

Postby TomW » Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:22 pm

I'm building and riding quads. The fin placement, toe in, cant and sizes has a huge influence on the feeling. I think there has been too little design research put into quads for kitesurfing, and we are using the standard surf quads for kiting that are not optimized.
The only thing I'd like is that they would break out/ slide a bit more easily.

I'm using futures F4 small quads and experimented with keel twins and bigger more vertical twins and found them inferior in many ways, superior in one thing ( faster straight ahead)

I'm making some smaller rears with 9 degree cant for my board and will test them soon.
Here's my setup. Please note I ride in shitty onshore windwaves.
2017-03-18 14.55.42-1.jpg

danidr
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Re: Kite Surfboards vs "normal" Surfboards

Postby danidr » Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:09 pm

NorCalNomad wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:58 pm
danidr wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:12 pm
I did get them from a local shop as I needed them fast after loosing one of the fins at sea, but I'm curious about the amazon/Chinese ebay comment. Is that because or fake products like with memory cards?
Because the surf hardgoods industry is small and by buying from amazon and chinese sellers who are knocking stuff off you are taking money away from surfers, ie people who actually care about surf sports.
That's a good point. I normally try to buy my stuff at the local shops in our spot (Cabarete), but there's a lack of offerings. I buy most of my boards locally as I find it too much of a guess to buy a board you didn't try, but kites and bars I always buy online (MacKiteboarder, they're a surfer's shop) since taxes in the DR for imports like that is close to 40%. Any other small items I need for kiting I always buy locally from the shop's, and I try to always give my business to support the local places that live off kiting.

TomW wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:22 pm
I'm building and riding quads. The fin placement, toe in, cant and sizes has a huge influence on the feeling. I think there has been too little design research put into quads for kitesurfing, and we are using the standard surf quads for kiting that are not optimized.
The only thing I'd like is that they would break out/ slide a bit more easily.

I'm using futures F4 small quads and experimented with keel twins and bigger more vertical twins and found them inferior in many ways, superior in one thing ( faster straight ahead)

I'm making some smaller rears with 9 degree cant for my board and will test them soon.
Here's my setup. Please note I ride in shitty onshore windwaves.
2017-03-18 14.55.42-1.jpg
That's a nice board, shape and size looks like something fun to ride! I'm soon getting a LF happy pill 4' 10" for foiling while travelling to the USA. I won't have my surfboard during the travelling, but just found out it's a wakesurf board with quad fin mounts. My understanding is that the fin's that come with that board are really bad plastic ones. I'm thinking of getting some decent fins for that board so I can surf with a kite on that trip. Any recommendations?

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Re: Kite Surfboards vs "normal" Surfboards

Postby longwhitecloud » Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:29 pm

i think aliexpress and whish etc are great places to get fins - people really cannot afford to buy 4 sets of fins at $130 a set - most people never in their life experiment with different fin sets.

on the flip side soon all our jobs will be AI and located in the cheapest labour market area on earth. ie not our jobs any more.. so..

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Re: Kite Surfboards vs "normal" Surfboards

Postby NorCalNomad » Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:41 am

longwhitecloud wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:29 pm
i think aliexpress and whish etc are great places to get fins - people really cannot afford to buy 4 sets of fins at $130 a set - most people never in their life experiment with different fin sets.

on the flip side soon all our jobs will be AI and located in the cheapest labour market area on earth. ie not our jobs any more.. so..
If you live in the states you can sign up for Finatic and test fins to your heart's content and not have to gamble on a $130 fin set. But if you're kiting you're not that hard up for money. You can always resell fins since they don't really depreciate.

Aliexpress is a horrible place that is only knock off fins that is hurting the surf industry. The people selling on there don't care about surf sports and won't reinvest in the industry or develop new ideas. No idea where you work, but I'm sure you wouldn't be stoked if someone came along and knocked off your product and cut into your paycheck

BTW I don't work for the surf industry

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Re: Kite Surfboards vs "normal" Surfboards

Postby Matteo V » Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:45 am

danidr wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:12 pm
Matteo V wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:34 pm

Thrusters make you control the direction the board is pointing much more strictly. If chop points the nose upwind suddenly, you will start to go upwind. If the nose then gets thrown downwind, then you start traveling downwind. So the focus is not on the fins but rather stopping the nose from bouncing around with the front foot.
This piece is really interesting and I believe its what I've been feeling when riding a quad. Since It has a more locked on feeling compared to the thrusters I might have been confusing playfulness with stability. I'll have in mind all of you guys comments next time I go out on a quad! Thanks a lot for your insight!!
No one has flamed me yet, so let me try a bit harder.

Thrusters are high school physics. They are pretty well known to riders and shapers alike. They work well....no, they work the best for explaining everything we need explained in surfing/kitesurfing.

Quads are Grand Unified Theory. They go so much further, with sometimes unnecessary/non-useful complications. When we attempt to reconcile them in everyday terms, we fall flat on our face, and live with the reality that most people will never come close to grasping the concepts or implications of them. Not much with them is needed for practicality, and many concepts are still yet to be proven. But still, a few of us indulge and ponder the questions. And one day, we may be able to understand them.

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Re: Kite Surfboards vs "normal" Surfboards

Postby alamos_kiter » Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:27 am

Matteo V wrote:...Thrusters are high school physics. ...Quads are Grand Unified Theory.
You want to call fluid dynamics "high school physics"? Go ahead then, depict and describe the flow around a thruster, and resulting forces, considering the flow around the board rail and along the bottom, in 3 common situations:
- upwind
- down the line of a clean wave
- downwind

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Re: Kite Surfboards vs "normal" Surfboards

Postby Beardytello » Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:54 am

BigZ wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:05 am
One way to do it is to use one of the surfboard volume calculators - e.g. One on firewiresurfboards.com - and enter young, fit, expert surfer in the form :-)

The volume returned should about right for old, unfit, beginner kitesurfer :-)
I like this, you've described me to a T :lol:

Matteo V
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Re: Kite Surfboards vs "normal" Surfboards

Postby Matteo V » Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:38 pm

alamos_kiter wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:27 am
Matteo V wrote:...Thrusters are high school physics. ...Quads are Grand Unified Theory.
You want to call fluid dynamics "high school physics"?
Matteo V wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:45 am
No one has flamed me yet, so let me try a bit harder.
Nailed it! Ahhhhh and just the next post after.

Thrusters are simpler and very well understood in their characteristics and handling.
Quads are more complicated and not yet widely understood with respects to characteristics and handling.

I spent lots of time trying to create a theory on the differences between the two. I only was successful in defining thrusters, and coming close (possibly) to getting a grip on the quad. And that is coming from someone who rides quads nearly exclusively now.

TomW
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Re: Kite Surfboards vs "normal" Surfboards

Postby TomW » Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:46 pm

I used a thruster board for years. A Slingshot Celeritas. I was never really happy with it, didn't turn that we'll. Then I got a quad Slingshot spacepickel, and it was way better for my conditions. Then I looked at a lot of boards with quads, trying to understand the fin placement, tail shape, rocker combination. I started to understand why that Celeritas was really a wave gun in a compact format.
Interesting is that Tomo quads have almost same idea of quad fin placement.
So I copied that with squash tail.
I don't claim to have solved the quantum mechanics of quads, but stumbled onto a recipe that works.

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alamos_kiter
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Re: Kite Surfboards vs "normal" Surfboards

Postby alamos_kiter » Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:42 pm

Matteo V wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:38 pm
..I spent lots of time trying to create a theory on the differences between the two. I only was successful in defining thrusters, and coming close (possibly) to getting a grip on the quad.
I'm listening. Define thrusters if you please.


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