Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

Front or back heli loops for soft landings after jump?

Forum for kitesurfers
GrodanBoll
Medium Poster
Posts: 195
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:39 am
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Front or back heli loops for soft landings after jump?

Postby GrodanBoll » Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:41 pm

My knees are worn out from years of kiting. Still I love to jump in strong wind... I know it's not good for my knees but the feeling of feeling alive can't stop me from jumping high.
To make my knees last as long as possible I try to aim for as soft landings as possible. I pretty much always make a downloop, a front heli loop or a back heli loop. Question is which loop gives the softest landings? I have a feeling that the front heli loops give the softest landings even though I can't explain why.

Normally I land with about 3.5G according to the woo. I recently did a 11.4 meter high jump, made a front loop on the way down and landed amazingly soft with 1.5G. I wish all my landings could be that soft!

User avatar
jeromeL
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1114
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:22 pm
Local Beach: Longisland NY
Style: freestyle
Gear: Fone Bandit 2014 12m^2, 2015 9, 2015 7, 2015 14
Best GP 2015 9m
Star Sirius V2 12m
Nobile Fity/50 138cm
Naish Apex bindings.
Zeeko Green and White + Shinn El Stubbo
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Longisland, NY, USA
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 2 times
Contact:

Re: Front or back heli loops for soft landings after jump?

Postby jeromeL » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:07 pm

GrodanBoll wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:41 pm
Question is which loop gives the softest landings? I have a feeling that the front heli loops give the softest landings even though I can't explain why.

It took me 1 year to understand when front and back "heliloop" gave soft landing from trial and error. There is a lot of nonsense of keeping kite at 12 and cranking bar after apex but that won't give consistent results, it really depends how body is moving. For a while I thought I was doing landing loop or heliloop but really only 1 out of 5 was very lofty, 1 out of 10 I would bounce back up. Now that I understand the mechanic I get very bouncy landing loop 4 out of 5.
Doing them on high range of a C kite definitly helped understand them better because if not timed right you get yanked megaloop style ;) On my bandit unless overpowered the timing didnt matter as much could always stump landing but wasn't always lofty landing.

You want to balance under kite when you make heliloop, that drives whether you do a front or back heliloop, it's totally symetric!
Some people say it's always softer on downloop but if the setup is symmetric it will be as soft on back kiteloop...

Another way to think about it is to keep kite in front of you, so you keep kite back and and loop it to the front or keep it to the front and loop it back. But I think position of kite isn't as important as what the body is doing: is body going straight downwind, is body going toward left, or toward right?

scenario 1)
You boost well with aggressive send and keep kite back (going right you keep kite at 11 30) until after apex.
You start to swing back under the kite (going right initially you swing back downwind to the left)
You pull downloop and land very softly.
You effectively kind of do a transition jump.

scenario 2)
You boost well with aggressive send, right before going though apex you send kite forward.
This sends you on a downwind course and you start to swing under kite in same direction you were going prior to jump.
As you go under kite you pull back kiteloop.
land and keep riding same way you were going.

3) plenty of speed downwind
After a powered kiteloop/megaloop you have plenty of downwind speed. depending where kite is you can heliloop left or right but you have so much downwind course that it doesn't matter so much..


Those are standard scenarios but if you understand that you need to swing under kite you can do whatever you want with kite while in the air and as you come down you try to time a kite position and body movement that makes heliloop works.


For example scenario 4)
If you don't boost well, let say you pop too early or got a really bad pop, you will go downwind with plenty of cross wind speed, in those case a back kiteloop will make landing very soft (won't be heliloop and over head).



Bad scenarios:
You can't do a heliloop if you have too much tension on line.
For example if after apex you have almost no downwind speed (if you have a good pop that happens) don't loop it, that will yank you downwind. It's fine if you want a fun landing but the yank will mess up your balance if you don't expect it.

GrodanBoll
Medium Poster
Posts: 195
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:39 am
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Front or back heli loops for soft landings after jump?

Postby GrodanBoll » Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:28 pm

So the conclusion is that there is no specific loop that makes landings softer, but it's all about getting a feeling of which type of loop that will give you the softest landing in different scenarios.

User avatar
jeromeL
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1114
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:22 pm
Local Beach: Longisland NY
Style: freestyle
Gear: Fone Bandit 2014 12m^2, 2015 9, 2015 7, 2015 14
Best GP 2015 9m
Star Sirius V2 12m
Nobile Fity/50 138cm
Naish Apex bindings.
Zeeko Green and White + Shinn El Stubbo
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Longisland, NY, USA
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 2 times
Contact:

Re: Front or back heli loops for soft landings after jump?

Postby jeromeL » Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:28 pm

GrodanBoll wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:28 pm
So the conclusion is that there is no specific loop that makes landings softer, but it's all about getting a feeling of which type of loop that will give you the softest landing in different scenarios.
scenario number 1 is the most common especially in moderate jump of 5-7m. it's a question of timing, at that height you don't get many scenario. Right after apex you are pretty much ready for downloop, you don' have time to play around with kite.

If you go high enough there are more scenarios because on way down you can move kite back and forth anyway you want. you can choose whether to send your body to the right or left, you can choose kite position prior to initiating kiteloop, all of those will give very different result on the loop, even though they are all loop on the way down, and no matter how much you crank that bar it won't be a heliloop.

Think about it, once you are are up you can always set the variable so it's symmetrical problem, so no reason back or front loop should be softer than the other.

User avatar
Robsw6
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2327
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2002 1:00 am
Kiting since: 1999
Local Beach: Hayling Island
Favorite Beaches: One eye, Sidi Kaouki, Big Bay, Gwithian & Hayling
Style: Powered
Gear: Reedins, Orbit2s & Surfboards (Cabrinha's & Naish), Nomad/TAD Mutants, Flash 4'10 & Naish Pro 4'10, Moses Hydrofoil & North Atmos
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 44 times
Been thanked: 101 times

Re: Front or back heli loops for soft landings after jump?

Postby Robsw6 » Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:54 pm

Very useful thread - According to WOO stats I am struggling to land under 3 to 4.5G for jumps between 10-19m

I am not doing proper heli-loops, instead I crank the bar as soon as I start going down into a half heli loop and then pull out of the forward/downloop, unless doing a lower transition jump and I continue to do a full downloop - I am cranking the bar with tensioned lines through 90 degrees but I no doubt need to leave the bar cranked to keep the kite heli-looping.

It would be useful to hear what riders are doing regarding bar input and how far the bar needs to be cranked & for how long?

User avatar
jeromeL
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1114
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:22 pm
Local Beach: Longisland NY
Style: freestyle
Gear: Fone Bandit 2014 12m^2, 2015 9, 2015 7, 2015 14
Best GP 2015 9m
Star Sirius V2 12m
Nobile Fity/50 138cm
Naish Apex bindings.
Zeeko Green and White + Shinn El Stubbo
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Longisland, NY, USA
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 2 times
Contact:

Re: Front or back heli loops for soft landings after jump?

Postby jeromeL » Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:19 pm

TheRussian wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:54 pm
Very useful thread - According to WOO stats I am struggling to land under 3 to 4.5G for jumps between 10-19m

I am not doing proper heli-loops, instead I crank the bar as soon as I start going down into a half heli loop and then pull out of the forward/downloop, unless doing a lower transition jump and I continue to do a full downloop - I am cranking the bar with tensioned lines through 90 degrees but I no doubt need to leave the bar cranked to keep the kite heli-looping.

It would be useful to hear what riders are doing regarding bar input and how far the bar needs to be cranked & for how long?
I barely crank the bar, maybe 45 degree, it depends how far from 12 kite is as you swing under it, i start to crank slow and perhaps I crank a little more as kind gets behind me, but at this point ts muscle memory.
Heliloop will be over head and lofty when timed right without cranking bar all the way.
I sheet in all the way though.

Only time I crank more is if my timing was bad and kite went too far to other side of window.

Depends on speed of kite as you start thé heliloop but if you fishpole it, the kite stall a bit toward the end of heliloop.

User avatar
deniska
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 978
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:40 pm
Local Beach: Plumb Beach
Favorite Beaches: Cabarete
Gear: FS, Core
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 35 times
Been thanked: 108 times

Re: Front or back heli loops for soft landings after jump?

Postby deniska » Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:16 am

I try not to heliloop on jumps over 10m when flying edge or xr3. If you catch unexpected gust on a way down it may yank you silly turning the loop, in to proper kiteloop and add more speed at landing. I still manage to land most of my jumps at around 3G which is not that taxing imho. I just fly the kite between 11 and 1 and then redirect hard before landing. My kites are pretty lofty.
IMG_3507.PNG

User avatar
Robsw6
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2327
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2002 1:00 am
Kiting since: 1999
Local Beach: Hayling Island
Favorite Beaches: One eye, Sidi Kaouki, Big Bay, Gwithian & Hayling
Style: Powered
Gear: Reedins, Orbit2s & Surfboards (Cabrinha's & Naish), Nomad/TAD Mutants, Flash 4'10 & Naish Pro 4'10, Moses Hydrofoil & North Atmos
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 44 times
Been thanked: 101 times

Re: Front or back heli loops for soft landings after jump?

Postby Robsw6 » Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:24 pm

jeromeL wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:19 pm
Depends on speed of kite as you start thé heliloop but if you fishpole it, the kite stall a bit toward the end of heliloop.
That may be my problem, as I go from moving the kite at the zenith/apex of the jump (when its overhead) to keep it moving with airflow and then tend to crank/fishpole the bar through 90 degrees - it seems for best results you need to have the kite moving properly before the heli-loop

User avatar
deniska
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 978
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:40 pm
Local Beach: Plumb Beach
Favorite Beaches: Cabarete
Gear: FS, Core
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 35 times
Been thanked: 108 times

Re: Front or back heli loops for soft landings after jump?

Postby deniska » Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:32 pm

Jerome flies C kites which are pretty fast to turn..
something like ozone edge requires more aggressive steering

User avatar
jeromeL
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1114
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:22 pm
Local Beach: Longisland NY
Style: freestyle
Gear: Fone Bandit 2014 12m^2, 2015 9, 2015 7, 2015 14
Best GP 2015 9m
Star Sirius V2 12m
Nobile Fity/50 138cm
Naish Apex bindings.
Zeeko Green and White + Shinn El Stubbo
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Longisland, NY, USA
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 2 times
Contact:

Re: Front or back heli loops for soft landings after jump?

Postby jeromeL » Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:45 pm

TheRussian wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:24 pm
jeromeL wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:19 pm
Depends on speed of kite as you start thé heliloop but if you fishpole it, the kite stall a bit toward the end of heliloop.
That may be my problem, as I go from moving the kite at the zenith/apex of the jump (when its overhead) to keep it moving with airflow and then tend to crank/fishpole the bar through 90 degrees - it seems for best results you need to have the kite moving properly before the heli-loop
Like Denis said I have a fairly fast kite but like you said kite needs to be moving prior to starting the heliloop. Certainly you don't want the kite straight over head at 12 while you glide downwind then crank the bar, you will land it but won't have that lofty feeling of a well executed heliloop.
It's true that on the edge or star taina you need to crank the bar a little more. On fone bandit, fx or xr4 9m the feeling is about the same.

Just gathered a few down or back landing loop from recent sessions, I used to do a lot more but lately I have been practicing powered kiteloop so I haven't been doing much high jump.

In following video:
1) pretty standard downloop landing loop, send kite back wait unti I swing under kite and pull front hand
2) I was going for a powered kiteloop but aborted midway, this became an extreme example of 1 because I swing pretty fast back under kite.
3) same as 2) but on short lines
4) not really a heliloop but interesting to see that it's still a soft landing since kite is downlooping on other side of window. I am swinging back toward kite so when it loops on other side of window it slows me down well.
5) example of a back landing loop (scenario 2), first redirect kite forward through the apex of jump then pull back hand for heliloop. that one was timed a bit too late.
https://youtu.be/cObh9Zfqpdg

Here is a good example of not to do: on this video I have too much tension in the line and I don't have a downwind course swinging under the kite so got a lot of pull in the downloop, at the same time it was pretty wide because didn't crank the bar that much and got distracted by the yank.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVGbkNYa6Eg


Return to “Kitesurfing”