Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

Tube vs Softkite - an epic battle?

Forum for kitesurfers
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 919
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:39 pm
Kiting since: 2011
Local Beach: Netherlands. Maasvlakte, Slufter, Scheveningen, Domburg, Rilland, Brouwersdam, Ouddorp, Binnenschelde, Vrouwenpolder, Oostvoorne, Rockanje, Grevelingen, Borssele.
Style: Freeride, freestyle, wave.
Gear: Crazyfly Hyper 9m Switch Helium V1 18m Element V3 13m-7m V4 9m-5m Legacy V1 10m-14m Slingshot Fuel 2005
Crazyfly Bulldozer 2017 Firewire Hellrazor 6.1 timbertek Shinn Shinnster Nobile 555 125x38
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 6 times

Re: Tube vs Softkite - an epic battle?

Postby Faxie » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:16 pm

foilholio wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:27 am
Higher environmental impact of foils?? They last 4x as long and use less material from the start. How is that a bigger impact?

Foils relaunch faster than LEI in many situations. Y'all just been watching too many amateurs do it. 10000+ hours on foils then see what can be done :-) Now wheres my TP.

The arguments in that article are rubbish, a step inside a mind you probably shouldn't have. I gave up reading it after a brief skim and seeing about 15 things that are complete BS.
Are you in the mood to explain those then? I see some flaws too, but too lazy to write a long response :naughty:

Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2942
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 6:43 pm
Kiting since: 2001
Local Beach: Vejbystrand, Habo Ljung, Lomma
Gear: TW Surfboards 5-0
TW Surfboards hydrofoil board 90,105,110cm
Moses Fluente 550/590 + 330/325 and 633 se
Ozone Hyperlink 9mUL, 7m
Hyperlink V2 13m
Concept Air Wave 4,5m
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Sweden
Has thanked: 17 times
Been thanked: 51 times

Re: Tube vs Softkite - an epic battle?

Postby TomW » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:14 pm

The fact that the soft kite has air mass only makes a difference when you move the kite. If it's still over your head, the air mass is not " weighing down " the kite.
Indeed, the air might get hot in the sun and weigh less!

Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1432
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 7:54 pm
Kiting since: 1999
Gear: LEI's & Surfboards
Has thanked: 39 times
Been thanked: 34 times

Re: Tube vs Softkite - an epic battle?

Postby PullStrings » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:18 pm

foilholio wrote: Now wheres my TP.
about 15 things that are complete BS.
Do us all a big favor and go do a mixer test
96% of all the kiters say so

Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2653
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:20 am
Kiting since: 1337
Local Beach: Ventura Beach
Favorite Beaches: Tarifa
Style: Airstyle
Gear: Foils
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 102 times
Been thanked: 30 times

Re: Tube vs Softkite - an epic battle?

Postby foilholio » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:37 am

Pully you took the bait, so easy :-)

Faxie wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:16 pm
Are you in the mood to explain those then? I see some flaws too, but too lazy to write a long response :naughty:
Not really. I gather you are referring to the article? I am not going to read the thing let alone dissect it. There is too much that well reminded me strongly of kitexpert. Just off mind though falsely attributing kite acceleration to a moment of torque (he called it pitching) and not correctly inertia.

If I got it wrong and you are talking about my foilkite points, well too I can't be bothered explaining them either. I know what I know.

Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1384
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2004 5:53 am
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 16 times

Re: Tube vs Softkite - an epic battle?

Postby fernmanus » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:32 am

“Tube vs Softkites - Epic Battle”

Sound like trolling to me. Really, who cares what kite you use, there is no right or wrong choice. It is not even worth arguing about.

How about more threads on what kites are at suited for certain conditions or how to ride a dang hydrofoil without crashing a zillion times?

User avatar
Frequent Poster
Posts: 269
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 11:40 am
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Re: Tube vs Softkite - an epic battle?

Postby sabraxas » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:54 pm

The note written by Groesel is correct, but has its flats. One of them is the express intentionality to say that the singleskin profile of an inflatable kite generates more lift and less drag than (higher L/D ratio) than a double skin soft kite. But this is measured at angle of attack of 20 degrees!
In general, the wing profiles of the double-skin kites amply win the inflatable kites in Lift / drag ratio, at lower attack angles, even tending to zero.

Inflatable kites are a wonder of simplicity and complexity at the same time. But Sunday's soccer match results are being analyzed reading the newspaper on Monday. Aerodynamically speaking, if the kites did not have to float and relaunch from the water, I believe that never any designer with some knowledge of aerodynamics would have evolved the kites to the side where they have evolved the last 18 years: the inflatable kites.
Nobody would have put tubes with air pressure or curved them so much. To that wonderful aerodynamic freak, after years of cut & try tests, designers finally achieved what inflatables are today. Stable kites, with a wide range of wind, manageable, safe, repeatable and with huge absorption of gusts.

Summing up this idea, the inflatable kites first, above all, FLOAT in water and then fly. For some years now they have been flying very well, but it took time for the development of the current performance. In turn, I would say that the soft kites first FLY and then float. Beyond the aquatic universe, inflatable technology is not used, or only in very few cases. Not in power kiting, Kitebuggying, landboarding. As far as I know, no one practices paragliding seriously with an inflatable kite (and i think this is not only a fact caused by internal air pressure of tubes at different heights).

Groesel talks about the simplicity in the construction of inflatables. And this is a very strong point in the kite industry. An inflatable kite can be developed entirely with moderately trained operators with the half of the amount and lower quality materials than a soft kite. A soft kite is not sewn by anyone but an expert. There is already experience in generic foils of Chinese origin, which lacks of the performance of the best made in Europe soft kites developed .

On the other hand, Groessel argues that 96% of the market buy inflatables and only 4% buy soft kites.
We could also say that 99.9% of the market buys cars with an internal combustion engine, and only 0.1% electric. However, the energetic performance of an internal combustion engine is very much lower than an electric motor. People buy what brands sell, depending on what they can afford. Marketing is a fundamental part of that equation.

In 2004, Don Montague, Naish's kite designer, projected future double-skinned inflatable kites, with increased pressure on the leading edges. But back then he said that technology did not exist in the necessary materials. And if it existed, it was unfeasible because of the costs.

I would like you not to misunderstand me, I am not a fanatic of any type of kite, I think the inflatables and foils are marvelous. Each one with their pro and cons, each in their niche and, why not, tackling a little the other. Now Flysurfer takes out the Soul. A kite that takes the best features of soft kites and adds the precise and immediate handling of an inflatable. I have not flown it, but it is giving a lot to talk about its handling, relaunchability and its "compact" flight.

Finally, I close with some ideas of an experienced kiter with extensive knowledge in aerodynamics about the inflatable kites : "... A kite is a grotesque thing, it is not a wing.
It is a crap full of colours where the most important things are the colours and the graphics ... and to push with a certain glamour.

A tube pipe inflated with cloth flapping back, distorted by design and marketing issues that requires floating (in the water !!!) and twisting to turn.
Plane at the tips and with reinforcements (where it should be lighter) and things that stand out like valves, hoses, battens, blah, blah.

The kite does not fly. Just eject it to realize ... it seems, but no.
It looks like a wing, but it is not. It requires infinity of subtleties of design that postpones very far back things that for a "wing" would be primary.

A kite is something where what matters is always something else. "

... GREAT!
Last edited by sabraxas on Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:46 pm, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 723
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:54 am
Kiting since: 2010
Local Beach: Gera Lario, Como Lake, Italy
Favorite Beaches: Lo Stagnone (Marsala, Sicily - Italy) - Soma Bay (Egipt) - Cabarete (Dom Rep.) - Kite beach (Maui)
Style: Freeride
Gear: Core Riot XR4 11, Core Riot XR 7, Core Riot XR2 15, Flysurfer Speed 5 21, Shinn Bronq 136x42, Shinn Bronq XL
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Como Lake - Italy
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Re: Tube vs Softkite - an epic battle?

Postby pmaggie » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:52 pm

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Frequent Poster
Posts: 273
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:54 pm
Kiting since: 2001
Local Beach: Florida Left Coast, USA
Favorite Beaches: Any that are not crowded.
Style: Old fart style
Gear: Kites: Flysurfer Speed5 21m, Soul 12m, Cabrinha 16m Xbow, 11m Xbow, Best 14m HP Nemesis, 9m Yarga C Hybrid
Boards: Crazyfly 135 x 46 Pro, Cabrinha Spoiler 140, 6' custom surfboard, 122 x 46 custom twintip, custom 140 x 50 strapless twintip/skim
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 14 times

Re: Tube vs Softkite - an epic battle?

Postby JakeFarley » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:36 pm

sabraxas wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:54 pm
A kite is a grotesque thing, it is not a wing.
It is a crap full of colors where the most important things are the colours and the graphics ... and to push with a certain glamor.
Now that was good! :D

Mossy 757
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1668
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:10 pm
Kiting since: 2013
Local Beach: First Landing State Park, Virginia Beach Oceanfront
Style: Kitefoil
Gear: Delta Hydrofoil and board. Cabrinha Velocity 9m, Flysurfer Sonic2 11m, Ozone R1V2 15m
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 19 times

Re: Tube vs Softkite - an epic battle?

Postby Mossy 757 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:40 pm

downunder wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:54 am
I think 2 this year already...
Okay, so 2 out of like 200,000 Australian surfers, those are great odds.

The real question is how many LEI kiters have taken their own lives out of shame and embarrassment for riding inferior gear to their foil kite counterparts?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1607
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:12 pm
Kiting since: 2009
Local Beach: OBX; Clinton Lake, IL; Lake Michigan; Tawas, MI; SPI; La Ventana
Gear: Kites: Slingshot Rally 5/7/9/11m, Slingshot Turbine 9m, Flysurfer Speed4 10m standard, Peter Lynn Venom II ARC 16m
Boards: Spleene RIP 37, Flysurfer Flydoor5 XL, Slingshot/Moses 80/91/105cm masts 590/683s/633 wings, Tim's 36" "woody", Slingshot Dwarfcraft 42", MBS Comp 95x

For sale: Stringy's 743 custom surf fuselage for 633/683S/790/873
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 40 times
Been thanked: 76 times

Re: Tube vs Softkite - an epic battle?

Postby grigorib » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:25 pm

sabraxas wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:54 pm
... A kite is not a wing.
It is a crap full of colours where the most important things are the colours and the graphics ... and to push with a certain glamour.
I wouldn't talk that dismissively about greatest passion of my life be it foils and/or LEIs.
Practically kite can be a sail and/or a wing. Oracle team USA sail is a wing. Wind turbine props are wings. Even butterfly wings which are not much more than windmill blades aerodynamically speaking are called wings too. Same arflow/efficiency considerations, of course at much higher AoA compared to an airplane wing but still wings. Ground effect vehicles have wings at even higher AoA.

Single skin vs. double skin argument....Ozone XXLite paraglider is a wing and guys are having fun landkiting on single skin kites. I wouldn't associate single-skin with LEI world only.

Now valves/tubes/etc - besides floatation the reason is structure of the wing and many still have kites with carbon spars in them, and handgliders are structured wing and nobody has problem with that.

95% of launches I make are not suitable for foil kite. Countless drift launches and self landings, gusty winds kind of narrow down choice of kites to ride and I know for many freestylers they stay on LEIs in winter too just not to relearn muscle memory for different timing.

The "epic battle" is no more than Mac/PC battle or Coke/Pepsi battle. I'm not enlisted as a soldier in this battle, I would buy one or another or dump both for anything better, just as hydrofoil made my kitesurfboards become home décor.

Return to “Kitesurfing”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: alfredo68, Baidu [Spider], Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], grigorib, IWB2 and 12 guests